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Posted By: britton Posted On: Jul 24, 2007 Views: 1813	mark until you can offer me one scripture that gets around the folling then you have not aswered me, this is a verse you use to prove your point yet is proves your theory wrong, i believe pre-trib is the main reason for the great apostacy, people believing they are going to be carried off by some secret rapture when its a false teaching, yet some 90% of the western church teaches it, yet some 90% of the church isnt even walking according to the calling of the gospel, including myself, yet were all comfortable, So let us go back to the Bible. Here is question number one. Just how does the Rapture fit in with the sure and blessed hope of the Resurrection of those dear saints who have passed on? Here is what our Apostle Paul had to say. 1Thessalonians 4:15-17 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Here in this passage of scripture we see Paul clearly showing us a combined Resurrection-Rapture. The Rapture will "by no means precede" the Resurrection, Paul says. So if we are going to have a Pre-Trib Rapture then it must be accompanied by a Pre-Trib Resurrection. Does such an idea exist in Holy Scripture? Of course such an idea is extremely problematical. There is no scripture laying out a special early Resurrection coming seven years before the end of the age. The Bible clearly shows us a Post-Tribulation Resurrection. the dead in Christ will rise 1st. then comes the end. clearly you need to read your bible and study when the dead in Christ rise. because it doesnt happen until the procession leading to armaggedden... be blessed mate britton [[ Mark's reply: Great questions. I've replied below. ]]
Posted By: britton Posted On: Jul 24, 2007 Views: 1812	to little brother give me the verse that says the spirit will be taken away before the anti christ takes the scene, if pre trib is right and the spirit leaves with all the saints then how does the end time harvest happen.... no Holy Spirit no revival, man can do nothing on His own when it comes to salvation , only God can deliver man from sin because of grace through faith, if there is no spirit on earth than you are saying that man can save himself therefore blaspheming Gods word, with no Holy Spirit the rest would be condemned to hell, give me the scripure that that you have claimed for truth ......... britton
Posted By: Casey Posted On: Jul 24, 2007 Views: 1811	agreed hey mark its Casey again, i liked your answer, and i did read Revelation 1-2. that does make sense and actualy thats wat my mother has always said is that ur deeds reflect weather u r truly saved or not. and if u r purposely sinning then ya there's obviously the lack of the Holy Spirit in your life. so true we should strive to do good if we've accepted Christ which means God will take us. The only thing is, is thats not wat it says in ur article, and if it was wat u were trying to say it didnt come out clear enough. this is your quote from the beginning of the article. "The 'Pre-Tribulation' rapture represents God taking some of his people from the Earth before the Great Tribulation; these are Christians in HIGH STANDING with God who do not have to suffer through his judgements of wrath that come on the world." you said it right there in that paragraph that God will only take some CHRISTAINS. from wat u just told me and i aggree with it, a true Christain strives to please God, but wat u r sayin here is that that isnt even enough, that he's only gonna take some christains. if the bible says anywhere that God wont take all the christains please tell me. cuz u just told me that if ur deeds dont show ur salvation then ur not saved so that means if ur truly saved ull be striving to do good. but in that paragraph up there it implys that that's obviously not enough and that God will select a group out of those people to go. please correct me if im misunderstanding you. And later on in your article when you talk about the left behind series u say "Obviously, they have to take part in it. These are the SINFUL Christians portrayed in the Left Behind series by Jerry Jenkins and Tim Lahaye, who finally REPENT (stop sinning) and profess true faith during the time of Great Tribulation." I have read that series over twice and it makes it clear that they hadnt accepted Christ b4 the rapture. up there u said that they were SINFUL CHRISTAINS. they werent even christains b4 the rapture. now u may wonder y im argueing a statement about a fictional book(tho based on true prophesy) but i am because using wat u responded to me there's no such thing as a christain striving to sin yet u described them as SINFUL CHRISTAINS. and if u think about it we're all sinful christains, we all still sin but we try not too. Now later on in your article i see that u have luke 21:16. i think when it says to "pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen" i think it may be refering to accepting Christ. because once we've accepted Christ we are saved which means we are the children of God and we will be raptured. i dont think that means that once your christain u also need to be in prayer to ask God to spare you from the tribulation. once ur saved, ur saved. Or in my study bible it says Jesus was warning them to pray to escape persecution which seems ridiculous cuz if they follow Christ they wiil be persecuted, but if u remember Jesus also asked God to spare Him from the cross but he still followed God's will. Looking deeper i found that Luke chapter 21 is a double prophesy. it explains the end times and it also explains the fall of temple. theres a good chance that Luke 21:36 was refering to them praying to avoid the fall of Jeruselem which later does fall from Rome in 70 A.D. you also use Revelation 3:10, in REV. 3:10 He's just tellin the church he's pleased with them for keeping his command to endurance, then he says I ALSO will keep you from the hour of trial... The also that he uses implys that he was making two different statements here. He didnt say "BECAUSE you kept my command i will spare you" Then you use Matthew 24:22 because it mentions believers in the tribulation. those are the tribulation saints that u mention a few paragraphs down. they are mentioned in Rev. 7 along with the 144,000 witnesses. And then later again u say this, " True faith begins with your accepting his gift of forgiveness of sins, for which Jesus Christ, his son, died on the cross. BUT THAT IS NOT ENOUGH TO PLEASE GOD. Now as a believer in Christ, you must pray to God for sanctification (1 Thess. 5:23) by his Holy Spirit, so that you can escape sin, and be made holy and righteous, in the image of Christ. You must become purified by the renewing of your mind." 1 Thess. 5:23 says "May God Himself, the God of peace, sancify you through and through. May your whole body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" Paul uses the word "may" which implys he's blessing the thessalonians at the end of his letter. He doesnt say "you better pray for sanctification or your doomed" A bit later you then say (still under the caption "how to make the first rapture")that you need to go to a pre-tribulational church. now i aggree with pre-tribulational doctrine but come on man, the Bible never said we have to go to a pre-tribulational church to make it. and besides alot of churches dont have a specific stand on the issue cuz alot of churches have people with different opinions. but thats ok cuz like i said in the last letter the most important thing for us christains is to be leading people to Christ. and thats wat Jesus wants, remember the Great Commision at the end of each gospel. you spent a small section of this article criticizin Rick Warren. come on, as Christains we have more important things to be worrying about than criticizing eachother, we have LOST SOULS all around us and we need to share the truth with them. And that's exactly wat Rick Warren has been doing so please dont criticize him. Well sorry for the long letter again its just i realy like ur last response but it didnt match ur article. and once again i ask if i misunderstood then please let me know. in my devotions tonight i will pray that God will help you understand the truth in these matters and if im wrong then i pray he shows me and then i will apologize to you. i beg you to pray the same thing and respond to me. Always look for Gods will, not ur opinions, rules, and wants. ive said alot in this comment but just know even though i dont know you i still love ya just like God wants us to love everybody, i just either realy misunderstood you, or i plainly just dont aggree with you, and if thats the case then i think we both should study and pray more and find Gods opinion. thanx again and God bless! In Christ, Casey Spaargaren p.s. forgive me of any typos im sure theres quite a bit cuz i dont have a spell check on my computer. [[ Mark's reply: Casey, thanks for pointing this out. You're right, I do come across too strong, as compared to what I write in my most recent articles. (I have a better understanding now) Regarding the 'sinful Christians', wasn't there a pastor that was Left Behind for having half-hearted faith? Now, I do believe that my understanding of Rev. 3:10 and Luke 21:36 are correct, if you look at the context they are being used in (read the entire passage) ]]
Posted By: Mark Posted On: Jul 24, 2007 Views: 1806	reply to Britton You make a great point regarding that the rapture can't happen until the resurrection occurs. Daniel 12:1-2, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18: 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 all state the same thing. Resurrection and rapture occur at the same time. So, if the dead in Christ from all ages past are caught up into the clouds at the same time as the rapture, why is there so much focus (in Revelation) on what happens to those who die during the Great Tribulation (and no mention of the dead in Christ from all ages past)? Please notice that when Jesus describes the Second Coming of Christ at the end of the 7 year tribulation, there is no mention of any resurrection. Matthew 24:30-31 - "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. No mention of any resurrection. Why is that? Let's go to Revelation - Rev. 14:11-13 - There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them." Ok, so this verse identifies faithful Christians who die during the tribulation (called 'saints'). Now, here's a detailed account of what happens to 'saints' who don't just die, but are actually beheaded during the tribulation: Revelation 20:4-5 - I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. So, in an event called the 'first resurrection', those who are beheaded will come to life and are apparently awarded by being made priests of God and reigning with Christ for a thousand years (in other words, these Christians are on Earth for Christ's Millenial Kingdom) Now, if you look at the text in blue, everyone else who dies during the tribulation will not come to life until the thousand years are up. So, in Rev.20:4-5, why aren't the dead in Christ from all ages past mentioned? Because the 'first resurrection' (as described above) only applies to those who will live on Earth for the Millenial Kingdom. The Bible identifies two "first resurrections" - One applies to a group who die during the Great Tribulation who will live on Earth for the Millenial kingdom (Rev. 20:4-5) The other applies to the dead in Christ from all ages who are caught up in the clouds at the same time as those alive - they are in the first (and only) resurrection to go to Heaven, as described in Daniel 12, 1 Corinthians 15:50-51, and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18. So, why are they in seperate Resurrections? It appears that the dead in Christ from all ages past must have been resurrected *before* the Great Tribulation If that's the case, that's a *strong indicator* that there is a pre-tribulation rapture, because the resurrection of the dead in Christ (those who died *before* the Great Tribulation) are not mentioned in Revelation. Nor are they mentioned when Christ comes for the 'Elect' in Matthew 24:31. So, two different groups. A resurrection of those who died *during* the Great Tribulation (they are brought to life on earth) and a resurrection of those who died *before* the Great Tribulation (they are brought to life in Heaven).
Posted By: Mr. Guy Posted On: Jul 25, 2007 Views: 1788	god Have any of you even thought about the fact that you are believing in a god from a book that has offered no proof and you really could believe in anything with that justification?
Posted By: A Rational Person Posted On: Jul 25, 2007 Views: 1786	Homosexuality
Posted By: Mark Posted On: Jul 25, 2007 Views: 1785	reply to Mr. Guy Have you thought for a moment that what if one day you have to account for every word and deed committed in your life? Would evil people (killers, rapists, etc) show their *true colors* if they knew for a FACT that God was looking over their shoulder? For Christians, Earth is a screening process, For example, Jesus taught a parable of the wheat and tares (weeds). At harvest time, God seperates the wheat from the tares. The wheat go to God's kingdom in heaven. The tares go to Hell. We (the wheat) leave this world behind, and all it's hate, misery, murder, and war. Now, imagine a world where only good, loving, joyful, and peaceful people live. That is the entire purpose of our lives here on Earth. To reveal our true colors, and show if we can love others, and show if we can obey God out of 'Faith' rather than out of 'Control'. * * * I have one major proof of God's existence that cannot be disputed - I have the Holy Spirit, and I did not have the Holy Spirit until the day I became a Christian. Unfortunately, you have to take that at my word, because there is no way for me to prove that to you.
Posted By: Casey Posted On: Jul 25, 2007 Views: 1773	thats cool hey its alright bro thanx for bein openminded to hear wat i had to say. but i do wanna say thank you though too for put an article like this online so people can see the importance of the gospel and how it can save them in the end. and hey next time you write an article on something Biblical feel free to send me an email. thanx for your time and God bless! In Christ, Casey P.S. in the left behinds they dont get specific with the pastor who was left behind but it implys that he wasnt saved cuz he tuly accepts Christ soon after he realizes he was left behind. So b4 that he wasnt truly a christain, so he couldnt of been a half-hearted christain if he wasnt a christain in the first place.
Posted By: willow reed Posted On: Jul 25, 2007 Views: 1769	hmmmm....thoughts on the end I was thinking... 1: the Bible has been translated a bazillion times. How can we be SURE that what we read now is, well, the right interpretation? 2: When you say "church" do you mean all Christians or those of a particular denomination? I am just curious. I always thought of all Christians as equal in the eyes of God. Are they? I hope someone can (or wants to) answer my questions because I am sorta confused and would love to open a dialogue and hopefully further my understanding. Thanks and have a great day! Wils
Posted By: Rich Kelley Posted On: Jul 25, 2007 Views: 1780	The last days. We are in the last days and have been from the day of Pentecost. Acts 2:16-17 (NIV) No, this is what was spoken by the Prophet Joel: In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Don't confuse the last Days with the last day.
Posted By: Robert Posted On: Jul 25, 2007 Views: 1788	Last days We have been in the last days since Pentecost when God will pour out his spirit upon all flesh. Our salvation is nearer than when we first believe. It does not matter what is happening in the world What matters is that we preach the gospel live holy lives and love one another as he loved us. If we believe that he is sovereign and we must, then what does it matter what is happening in the world or are these the last days so long as our names are in the Lamb's book of life.
Posted By: Kalin Posted On: Jul 25, 2007 Views: 1786	Mystery Babylon - correction Mark or the writer - I have studied Gods word and end time prophecies for years and in the last year have been compelled with such fervency to understand even more. Like Paul says, we must read the word rightly divided, meaning not taking scripture out of context but understanding it from beginning (Genesis) to the End (Revelation). We as Christians have lost so much understanding by separating ourselves from the jewish culture and customs as they reveal soooo much understanding of the end times. Even the dimensions adn furniture of the Tabernacle of Moses have meaning and understanding into the age of Law, the church age and millennial reign. Daniel and so many of the other prophets provide snippits that when put all together reveal this wonderful picture. With that being said, I think you are right on with everything you have said with the exception of the U.S. (New York) being mystery Babylon. I dont doubt for one minute that the US very easily and in the near future could be attacked by nuclear weapons as I actually do beleive an attack of some kind is emminent, however this does not prove that New York is mystery Babylon. NY does not fit the scriptures as Rome does. You see there are several verses that point to Rome such as the one you quoted below 1)Rev. 17:18 "And the woman you saw is the great city that has an empire over the kings of the earth." The Catholic Church (Rome) - aka mystery Babylon - has had an empire all over the earth and over many kings of the earth. This woman "the catholic church" is referred to as the "whore" or "Prostitute" because she has left her first love but still has the appearance of bride of Christ. - DONT get me wrong, not all that are catholics are like this, thats Why he tells them to "come out of her, my people" 2)Revelation 17:6 - I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and blood of the martyrs of Jesus." - No other place like Rome and the Catholic church has been guilty or responsible of martyring more saints than Rome and the Catholic Church. I dont know of any mass murderings of christians and saints in NY like Rome has done for centuries. Remember "her sins have piled up to heaven" which means over time. 3) Revelation 17:9 - "here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits." - if nothing else should convince you it should be this scripture, because Rome is famous for being the city of seven hills. you see John (the revelator) could not state it would be the Roman empire in his letter to the churches or it would have never reached them or us today, but by calling it mystery babylon it makes us search out the scriptures to find the truth that he was not writing about a future city that did not exist and has no ties to killing the saints or ruling other nations but it was the Roman Catholic church and all that are under her. I know I will probably be crucified out here for writing this, but it doesnt matter, because the truth will set you free. There is GREAT tension right now between the Catholic church - the Pope - and Islam, especially after the New popes recent open speaches about the evil of Islam and the muslims have vowed to destroy the church or recant and the pope has not recanted. So you can see that there is just as much a threat to Rome and the church as there is the US right now. It is all tied together becuase when it happens and the war Mentioned in Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 where Russia and persia (Iran) and all the other muslim nation allies go to attack Isreal all hell will literally break lose that the US will be incapable of defending her and GOd himself will show himself to the world by destroying 5/6th of their armies on the mountains of Isreal. I am sure this will be tied into attacks in the US and destruction of Rome. Oh there is soo much more too in the bible pointing to these very days that his return is soo close - if you are not ready - think about it, is hell worth your unbelief? whether you believe in the specifics of this or not - it is soo clear that now is the time of the end and the soon marriage supper of the Lamb. Dont let small details get in the way of the truth.
Posted By: Ryan Donahue Posted On: Jul 26, 2007 Views: 1477	This poll and the Christians Hey gang, if this be the "End of Days" like in Revelations, wouldn't that make President bush The Great Deceiverer? (sic) just sayin.
Posted By: Watchman Posted On: Jul 26, 2007 Views: 1473	Asteroid? The Destroyer came in the days of Ramses in Egypt when the Israelites were set free from slavery to a tyrant form of man made government. History always repeats itself and another Destroyer shall return again. God uses the heavenly bodies to bring about His judgements upon a world that is contrary and rebelious to His laws. When mankind rules and governs contrary to the laws of God He will bring His judgements. His word in Revelation speaks about a star called "Wormwood" which is basically an asteroid or a comet, a heavenly body that will be brought down to earth as a judgement against a rebelious world. Indeed the modern day Laodician church world is NOT calling this world to REPENT but chooses to live in a false material existance biding time until Christ returns to curse the ground they walk upon. It will only be a small remnant that will be spared when "Wormwood" strikes. MARANATHA
Posted By: Mark Posted On: Jul 26, 2007 Views: 1470	reply to Kalin I can understand why Rome is appealing (because it sits on '7 Hills'), but most people miss the fact that America is itself a religious system, much bigger than the Catholic church. Throughout the Old Testament God destroys or has enemies destroy people who follow other gods. America under the guise of Freedom of Religion, has been infiltrated with numerous gods, and numerous religions, and God's people (former Christians) have been turning to these other gods. America was founded under God and blessed by God, but it has clearly turned to other gods as we saw on July 12, 2007 when a Hindu prayer was said in the U.S. Senate (before that Hindu prayer the daily prayer had always been said to God), and at the beginning of January when Congress had a new rep. who was sworn in holding the Koran. In April, 2007 the Department of Veterans Affairs settled a lawsuit filed by families of Wiccan veterans by adding the pentacle (Satanic Pentagram) to the list of 38 approved religious symbols allowed on VA-issued headstones for placement in military and civilian cemeteries. If that's not bad enough, also consider: In Revelation, Mystery Babylon is destroyed because of *sexual immorality*, which America is the biggest Sodom and Gomorrah of all time... Yes, there are good Christians within America, but most have embraced immorality and this country is guilty of unspeakable things (internet corruption of children, etc). So because of it's false religions and widespread immorality that has even affected and included children (which God abhors), God is sure to bring judgement on America; it may even happen in 2007. I've also seen where 'New Age' (satanic) beliefs are affecting children. There are now cartoons on Nickelodeon that show spirit channeling and recently in an Albertson's grocery store they now have an aisle called 'New Age Drinks'. Satan now has an aisle in your local grocery store.

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