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| Post Info | TOPIC: Why do you think the big bang didn't not happen? |
| Posted By: Christopher B. Crosby Posted On: Mar 26, 2003 Views: 2588 | Why do you think the big bang didn't not happen? Please list the reasons you believe the big bang didn't happen. |
| Posted By: Christopher B. Crosby Posted On: Mar 26, 2003 Views: 2587 | RE: Why do you think the big bang didn't not happen? I believe the big bang did not happen and this is one of the reasons why. The matter in the universe had to come from somewhere. You can't make something out of nothing. And so, I ask you where did the matter from the big bang come from? |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Mar 26, 2003 Views: 2584 | RE: Why do you think the big bang didn't not happen? Q1) Who is your question adressed to? Who said the Big Bang never happened??? Q) You say the Big Bang did not happen because the matter in the Universe had to come from somewhere. So, according to you, if there was no Big Bang, then where did the matter come from? It couldn't come from nothing as you say. Big Bang or not, there is no explanation as to where it came from, but at least the Big Bang does explain everything that happened since the BB, and no other theory does that. |
| Posted By: yicheng Posted On: Apr 1, 2003 Views: 2565 | Oops I think I might have forgotten to close that font tag....Maybe this'll help |
| Posted By: yicheng Posted On: Apr 1, 2003 Views: 2566 | RE: Why do you think the big bang didn't not happe QUOTE: ------------------------------------------------------ I believe the big bang did not happen and this is one of the reasons why. The matter in the universe had to come from somewhere. You can't make something out of nothing. And so, I ask you where did the matter from the big bang come from? ------------------------------------------------------- That's more of a philosiphical question than the proof that such an accepted theory is false. I don't really like getting into philosophy, because if you think too hard, you wind up with some strange phrases. Or at least that's what happens to me. Well - perhaps you can provethat something can't come out of nothing. I mean, real proof. Something that's going to shock the world, like the big bang. Something of such a magnitude that it turns the whole thing over. I hate repeating myself but here goes again - "In the beginning there was nothing. Well, not quite nothing - more of a Nothing with Potential. A nothingness in which packets of energy fleeted in and out of existence, popping into oblivion as quickly as they appeared. One of these fluctuations had just enough energy to take off. It inflated wildly out of control - one moment infinitesimally small, moments later light-years across. All of space and time was created in that instant, and as that energy slowed, it cooled and froze into matter -protons and nuetrons and photons. This baby universe kept expanding, over billions of years, and those particles coalesced into stars and planets and eventually humans."According to Karen C. Fox, author of The big bang theory : what it is, where it came from, and why it works that's the modern version of the big bang. I'm not quite sure on this but apparently she said that protons and nuetrons and photons came from cooled energy. I'm sure the spacetime continuum is thrown somewhere in there, but i only know a little about the entire theory. And if you want my question to you... ----------------------------------- Do you think matter existed ever since...ever since...well, forever, eternally in all directions? That there never was a beginning and never will be and end? And by the way, what theory do you think started is true? |
| Posted By: yicheng Posted On: Apr 1, 2003 Views: 2564 | alright this is very strange I posted the long response to Chris's "how can you create something out of nothing" first and then added that i forgot to close the font tag, and finally this one. I wonder in what order they'll put this in?? |
| Posted By: C. R... Posted On: Apr 4, 2003 Views: 2558 | RE: Why do you think the big bang didn't not happen? Ideology, belief, condraction... Ok, for the benefit of those who didn't know >> This BBT idea was founded 1927 by a Belgian PRIEST named Georges-Henri Lemaitre, who drew upon Albert Einstein's Relativity theory and the Hubble factor (whose interpretation was still up in the air at the time) to RECONCILE the church's doctrine of creation ex nihilo (Latin - "out of nothing") with the Boltzmann interpretation of the second law of thermodynamics, which is based on closed, non complicated systems, and cannot fully account for phenomenon such as life, where disorder generates order. My point: You make a theory for the obervational and experimental evidence, and don't introduce any "reconciling factors" (fudge factors, e.g black holes, dark matter, doppler effect applied to redshift when it could be intrinsic, as Hubble himself said was possible) to protect a theory that contradicts the evidence. Not to mention string theory which is derived from it. You don't introduce new hypothetical ideas. You don't dismiss contradiction. If the belief doesnt fit the evidence, that's you problem, not bad evidence. Secondly, you don't dismiss any evidence. A theory must be falsifiable! If it is not, it is a theory of everything, which is not possible. The big bang theory is falsifiable and there is no point in trying to protect it from the inevitable! Thirdly, if a method for an experiment yields results which contradict common sense (measure a bucket of water to have 5 times the water it really holds) you question the method first. Despite that fact that the BBT violates the law of conservation of energy, we despirately cling to it, for what, religious and philosophical reasons. What other excuses have we got under our belt, for the reassurrance of the big bang believers' sake, give me a break. (Ahh..I swatted that blasted mozzi). I suggest people stop taking the big bang for granted! Where's the competition gone? Oh, and another thing, quantum mechanics and the big bang are interrelated, of course. I don't see why people don't question more theories more often, and be pointed about it, as they are only theories! Fourthly, contradictions are an inescapable inevitability of falsifiability. So all who are wondering...contradict away! And heavily at that! |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Apr 5, 2003 Views: 2556 | RE: Why do you think the big bang didn't not happen? In reply to CR, who judging by the lack of understanding shown,just has to be Carl Rolf:- My God Carl, you do talk such utter nonsense! You describe "black holes, dark matter, doppler effect applied to redshift" as "fudge factors". Carl, what century do you live in? The 18th? This is the year 2003 and black holes (and the rest) are as real as gravity. If you cannot accept this then you really shouldn't be posting messages. It only makes you look very silly. You also say, rather oddly, 'If the belief doesnt fit the evidence, that's you problem' The whole point about the BBT is that it does, very precisely, fit the evidence. Tweeking the EXACT figurs is still in process, but that is to be expected, the theory however is right in every thing it says. You also say "Despite that fact that the BBT violates the law of conservation of energy, we despirately cling to it" What planet do you live on Carl, never mind the century? If you think that statement is true then you clearly understand absolutely NOTHING about the Big Bang. Go away and swat up on it a bit. Your 'clever' references do not make up for lack of understanding. |
| Posted By: C. R Posted On: Apr 5, 2003 Views: 2547 | RE: Why do you think the big bang didn't not happen? If you hadn't notice i was being sarcastic to a point there. belief doesnt fit evidence; should have reworded that. I didn't say black holes aren't real, merely related them to the theory. Although i am opposed to it, that doesn't mean i don't consider it. If you are in any way influenced by religious concepts, i should remind you that i am not and therefore separate the two. I don't involve religion in science as the science speaks for itself. Science dictates just as religion does, only one has something grossly in its favour that the other doesnt. |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Apr 6, 2003 Views: 2544 | RE: Why do you think the big bang didn't not happen? So Carl, you were only being sarcastic? Which parts then did you mean and which did you not when you said the following? 1) fudge factors, e.g black holes, dark matter, doppler effect applied to redshift when it could be intrinsic, 2) BBT violates the law of conservation of energy 3) We cling to it, (BBT) for what, religious and philosophical reasons Perhaps you can understand why it is impossible to follow any of your pretentious arguments, you do not make any sense, then say you didn't mean it, well some of it, but not saying which!!! You also say "If you are in any way influenced by religious concepts, i should remind you that i am not and therefore separate the two." I have made my thoughts on religion abundantly clear on this site. As you do not seem to like the BBT (unless that was a joke?) perhaps you would care to tell us your favourite theory on how the Universe came into being, that does not involve a big bang. |
| Posted By: Jack McNally Posted On: Apr 6, 2003 Views: 2542 | RE: Why do you think the big bang didn't not happen? There WAS probably some local cosmic explosion recently (30 Bil yrs), and it is evidenced by the motion of bodies away from some nebulous local epicenter. Cosmic engines are not uncommon in the Universe. Man can create critical masses which produce relatively large explosions. Stars which become exhausted collapse and spawn detonations of gigantic magnitude. Why would it not be possible for galaxies or clusters of galaxies to do the same? This is probably a cyclical phenomenon and did not 'create' the Universe. JMc |
| Posted By: yicheng Posted On: Apr 6, 2003 Views: 2538 | to carl yeah, keith's got a point. If you don't believe in the big bang theory, what do you believe in? And don't say the steady state theory, that one has been punched dead already |
| Posted By: C. R Posted On: Apr 6, 2003 Views: 2535 | RE: Why do you think the big bang didn't not happen? Ok, might as well show you what i meant. Yes, i was playing around a bit. -the comments i made above were theory-independent, in other words, it didnt matter what theory i used. My choice was merely preferrential. -theory is falsifiable, evidence is not, so theory will always contradict evidence (i.e., all theories). -"don't make up hypothe..." -> lets deal with what we've got so far. -"don't dismiss con..." -> have your say. -perhaps now you know what i meant when i commented "contradict away". I still oppose creation in anyway. Has anyone heard of stoclastic electro-dynamics? Some of it's ideas i follow, but not all. I believe there are two possibilities (might have mentioned). -if creation is right, and something came from nothing, energy was created and has equally been destroyed, therefore nothing exists. -> as in energy is everything. -alternatively, looking back in time there is no reason to make the assumption that the universe wasn't always here, even based on our current interpretation of the evidence which has been gathered. The evidence may go through several different interpretations, though the more evidence, the more accurate the interpretation. -i believe mostly in the latter; if reality doesn't exists, there would be no reason to think we would be able to experience anything, even if it's an illusion. We do experience, so the concept of non-exists (as in absolutely nothing capable of happening), doesn't apply for me. -also believe that existence, as in the experience of it, is non-dimensional. In other words, i find it more logical to refer to something as a component of existence rather than a dimension. I also don't believe in the application of locational properties (didn't mention earlier). -a final point, the interpretation of the universe as "finite but unbound", when taking the definition of infinite strictly seems logical. -> It's not unbound, as that would imply infinite. (don't get me wrong, i know what unboundedness you refer to) -> I believe you cannot apply the "finite but unbound interpretation" as it has no dimensional properties , so you cannot apply a dimensional model to it. -> i would prefer a finite vector field model. -> lastly, i have a gut feeling and understanding against chance, randomness, etc (i don't expect to understand the world as i do, like you don't for me) -> i believe in fate (no, not religious fate and destiny, rather materialistic/scientific fate were hope, etc is not applied). -> i doubt any common theories are along these lines. i will probably cut down on commenting, and leave you alone a bit. |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Apr 7, 2003 Views: 2529 | RE: Why do you think the big bang didn't not happen? Carl, All I asked was that you explain how the Universe came into being without a big bang. For all your world weary, pretentious, egotistical, smart-arse refrenced, self bumming crap, you did not answer the question. Not that I could follow anyway. So how do you explain the expanding Universe if it did not originate from one point? Keith |
| Posted By: Jack McNally Posted On: Apr 7, 2003 Views: 2522 | RE: Why do you think the big bang didn't not happen? "All I asked was that you explain how the Universe came into being without a big bang." --------------------------------- Why do you assume the Universe 'came into' being? Do you believe cause and effect is the premise upon which the phenomenon of existence is based? If all which exists was created, a creator is necessary. If it existed, it must have been created by a predecessor. This chicken and the egg redundancy implies no logical beginning. The existence of the Universe is based upon a principle, not a procedure. It is actually quite simple - somewhat abstract because even logic has its limits. http://www.theory-of-reciprocity.com |
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