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| Posted By: Chara Posted On: Mar 20, 2007 Views: 3301 | Free will or not? Keith after having read your section on free will and "is there a meaning to life" I have concluded that your opinion on the subject is not consistent. Don't get me wrong I understand that it IS your opinion, however I feel like you have overlooked the details. I know you as one who is not afraid to be realistic. So I found it surprising when I read that you don't believe that we as humans are following a pre-determined path initialized by the big bang. You stated how the atoms that make up galaxies and the Earth and humans may have all been a product of the initial conditions of the big bang. I guess I just don't see the argument against that. To me it seems like "Of course they are the product of the big bang and it couldn't happen any other way given those initial conditions". Furthermore, I would believe it's safe to say with the right, unexistent, "tool" you could predict the future given the conditions of the big bang. Why is it hard for you to believe that: you going to get a burger, and then see Tomb Raider at the movies is something that this "tool" couldn't predict. We are all made up of those atoms from the beginning like you say. I'm interested in your response. Let me know if anything I have tried to explain is unclear. |
| Posted By: Corioliss and the truly amazing, death defying pot Posted On: Mar 21, 2007 Views: 3299 | RE: Free will or not? er like what the phuck has freewill to do with the big bang? - man we can't even get the orbit of Mercury right (Yes even Einsteins correction's are not completely accurate) - and you think you can predict the future from the past - LMAO - every insurance in the world would pay a fortune for that info - Grow up, nothing is -predetermined, the future cannot be predicted - Take Global warming, we are told what the weather will be like in 200 years time! - what the phuck is going on??? they can't even get the weather right for tomorrow! |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Mar 21, 2007 Views: 3296 | RE: Free will or not? I agree, when it comes to predictions we are hopeless! Given that we have free will then my future actions can not be predicted - even by me - as I haven't yet decided what to do tomorrow. If my future actions can be predicted then I can have no free will and instead I am just following a pre-ordained path like a brainless robot. Is that what you think? |
| Posted By: Chara Posted On: Mar 21, 2007 Views: 3293 | RE: RE: Free will or not? OK first of all weather predictions, and predictions in general really don't have anything to do with this. Of course PEOPLE can't predict the future, as that is clearly seen by wrong weather forcasters and I do not debate that. Maybe I wasn't clear, but I meant that a TOOL, which obviously doesn't exist, could predict the future if somehow we could give it all the parameters of the big bang. As was stated earlier by Keith, the result of these specific parameters would be the universe as we know it. And furthermore, if we duplicated the big bang with these same parameters then we would very likely get the exact same universe. Keith you should be able to agree with me up to this point. Now taking it further; we all came from the same cosmic event. Therefore, this TOOL would be able to predict the human race. The argument lies in the question of whether or not the human race actually has choices and decisions in life (though they may feel like choices) are actually just the process of atoms still reacting from the big bang. Why would one think that this is not the case? I would assume because they don't WANT it to be. And "want" is an extremely strong thing. To believe this it would mean we were all "robot-like", and the Earth is living not us. This may be hard to accept. To state what I believe: I would say that we are in fact organisms made up of atoms from the big bang, and we do not have free will because the atoms that make up "us" are the same atoms that will scatter when we die, and "we" are more of a process in the universe. Is it possible that after these atoms form "us" then we suddenly have an ability to control the future via our choices and decisions? I believe that is the main argument here. My response to that, however, is "Why WOULD it give us this power?" Our mind is made up of the atoms that are in a continuous process. The electric signals we send through our brain that control thought (and choices) are a result of the past. Even though we think we have control of our choices I believe we simply don't. For example, if we take a human decision and analyze it, I think you'll understand what I'm saying. Hypothetically, there is a child, and that child chooses to go beat up another kid. He knows full well what he is doing as well as the consequences. So why did he decide to beat this kid up? Well because the kid was mean to him. Why was the kid mean to him? Because the kid's mother raised him with no morals. Why would this mother raise him with no morals? Because HER mother "chose" to not care about her daughter. Now fast forwarding a bit...Why did that caveman hit another caveman? He was angered by an animal. Why was that animal angry? A volcano erupted and destroyed his nest. Why did that volcano erupt? The geology of the Earth. How did the Earth come about? The formation of galaxies. How did galaxies come about? The Big bang. Everything can be traced back to the big bang. Everything that results from the big bang is "fate" if you will. The TOOL that I talked about earlier would be able to analyze the actions of everything (given the parameters of the big bang), and it would be able to see how MANY actions would lead to a single action, and from that action (incorporated with many other actions) would then lead to another action. Well I'm sure that was crystal clear. To sum it up: What we think are choices are just reactions based on previous actions. And there are many previous actions that make us who we are, and there are many previous actions that control what/how we think and how we will choose. Keith and anyone who cares I would love a response. |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Mar 22, 2007 Views: 3288 | RE: Free will or not? I understand what you are saying, you have put your case very well and clearly. The difference of opinion we have stems from a very simple point. You believe that as everything is a consequence of the Big Bang, then with all the right information your 'Tool' would be able to calculate all future events. However, if this was the case, it would require that your 'tool' would have to be programmed with all past information about every single atom and every single event of the entire universe from creation to now. Even if this were possible, we do not live in a precisely ordered universe, quantum theory shows how events simply happen without a cause, and chaos theory shows how even a single minute variation can result in massive changes. We are unable, any 'tool' would be unable, to make firm predictions because we do have random unpredictable events take place. The way our minds work is a good example. I may decide to send this reply, or I may not, it is my choice. You will argue that what ever I do I was going to do anyway and it could have been predicted. I deny this. This is the very essence of free will, making our own choices. With your argument you are saying in effect that the future is set already, I say we create the future as we move through time by our choice of actions. Unfortunately neither one of us can prove their point, we basically take it on faith as the theory that most appeals to us, and if I understand you right you are saying the same thing, from the other side of the fence. Fair enough. Either view could be right or wrong. I just happen to believe we have free will because it feels like we do. |
| Posted By: Chara Posted On: Mar 22, 2007 Views: 3285 | RE: Free will or not? That is very interesting. Thanks for the insightful reply Keith. I really didn't think about quantum mechanics simply because I haven't studied it yet. But you say according to the chaos theory things actually DO happen randomly. That I suppose would be a great contradiction to my belief (if it is in fact true). I will read up on it more. |
| Posted By: Bobby Posted On: Apr 20, 2007 Views: 3253 | RE: Free will or not? Keith, if you think things happen randomly (I'm not debating it), then how can you believe that given all the same parameters of the big bang that we would get an exact same universe? |
| Posted By: Bobby Posted On: Apr 20, 2007 Views: 3251 | RE: Free will or not? "...if the big bang were repeated, with the identical initial conditions, you would expect that by and large things would develop pretty much the same, perhaps exactly the same." Thats what you wrote in the "Free Will" section. So Keith, if there is randomness, then even if given the exact same parameters, then a universe that is "pretty much the same" wont necessarily be the outcome. In fact if there is randomness, then given the exact same parameters, there could be a whole different universe as we know it. Nothing alike. What say you to that? I'd like to hear your opinion. Thanks. |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Apr 20, 2007 Views: 3249 | RE: Free will or not? I stick with the quote you took from my page on Free Will. If the Big Bang were recreated with identical conditions, then because of the nature of quantum fluctuations we could end up with a universe pretty much the same or totally different without a single star in it. The BB could be repeated a thousand times and produce a thousand different universes. Each time it would be like tossing a billion coins in the air and seeing if they all came down heads to produce a universe similar to ours. However, it would of course be possible that it would produce a universe "pretty much the same". |
| Posted By: Charles Matthew Posted On: Sep 22, 2007 Views: 3156 | RE: RE: Free will or not? With regards to randomness and free will: It seems to me that whether there is quantum randomness or not, the argument of causality fails to stand. The universe only "appears" to proceed in a casual chain of events. I'm not really sure how one would define "free will," but I can't help but feel that if "free will" is dependent on the universe NOT being "causal," the existence of randomness is a moot point since this condition has already been satisfied. Of course, this is all assuming that the concept of "free will" even makes sense in the first place. From an empirical standpoint, "free will" is a human idea derived from observation of an apparently "causal" universe. Note the word "apparently." Thought experiment: Suppose that we have some amazing supercomputer with the processing speed and memory to calculate the "state" of the universe for every existing quanta, from moment to moment. This computer would use "time" as the independent variable, and the velocities and spins of quanta, as well as the relative strengths and weakness of natural forces like gravity, as the dependent variables. Their vector quantities would be measured in relation to some arbitrarily chosen point in space that would be considered the origin. The beginning of this calculating process would, by necessity, occur some "time" "after" the big bang singularity, at time "t = 0." Now, I expect that most of you can see why this idea of a "predicting computer" already fails to hold up. Wouldn't the process of prediction require that time be broken down into discrete units? Can this be done? Einstine has shown that both time and space are relative and dependent on one another. How would we measure velocities without a reliable origin point with respect to time? Any point in "3D" space would be just as good as another -and that is to say, not good at all. This is because by choosing a point in space, we would also be choosing a point in time, but if "t" is equal to 0 in our equation, space must also equal 0. We would have no way of choosing a space coordinate without the time variable becoming undefined. Now, I know I've said that the universe only "appears" causal, but the above thought experiment can really be interpreted in two ways. One: The universe DOES proceed in a causal chain of events, but the process cannot be measured or predicted discretely because the process itself occurs in response to an indistinct gradient of "time" which is circularly relative to "space." Since the two cannot be isolated from one another, we could never PROVE that the universe is causal. That wouldn't mean it ISN'T causal, but simply that it is unknowable. If we made the attempt, surely we would find "random," unpredictable phenomena. Two: The fact that we can not clearly predict the causal chain of events seems to indicate that the universe is NOT causal, since in order to be causal, it would also HAVE TO BE predictable. The problem really lies with the human understanding of "time" as being a vector quantity. Does time truly have a direction? Probability (based on relativity) would indicate that it does not. In conclusion: The idea of "free will" doesn't make sense in the first place because it assumes that time has a direction. In any case, I've actually lost my train of thought, so I'm just going to leave it at that. |
| Posted By: Dood Posted On: Nov 9, 2007 Views: 3122 | RE: RE: Free will or not? i personally think the theory of the big bang is interesting and all and quantum mechanics does a very good job in making a reasonable explination of how the universe was made, the problem is i just cant believe it. i mean to think that the big bang had to specifically happen in that precise order and time and had to formulate everything in that amount of time in order for us to actually exist, i mean, in terms of referring to the chaos theory, thats freakin crazy, i mean i know for a fact that everything is possible but seriously the probablity of the big bang happening like it did as scientists claim is soooooooooo improbable that one can almost say that it is impossible even though it is possible. thats what really doesnt allow me to believe in the big bang theory |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Nov 9, 2007 Views: 3118 | RE: Free will or not? Once the Big Bang took place then everything that followed can be scientificaly explained. OK, we don't have all the answers yet, we need to fill in some of the details, but the overall big picture makes perfect sense. You do not believe it possible that we developed from the Big Bang, you think it far too unlikely. That is your choice, but the facts are stacked against you. What then is your explanation? How do you thik we got here? |
| Posted By: Taylor Posted On: Dec 27, 2007 Views: 3096 | RE: Free will or not? well, bout the Big Bang, it happened yes, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't guided. The precision of the universe clearly speaks out to a guided Big Bang. The Big Bang bringing to us what we have today in a chaotic method is, truly, next to impossible given the specific dimensions that have allowed us to be here. Now, there is the multiverse theory, or a "mother-verse" that would have a void of fluctuating energy that is continuously spawning universes, on those chances, if the "mother-verse" is infinite and infinitly spawning new universes (like a bubble bath, each bubble is a big bang which makes a new universe) then you could, eventually, have what we have today. Problem is this motherverse theory has no solid scientific evidence and is purely a theory of thought at the moment. But either way, you'd still have to have a creator for the infinite mother-verse so that it had the right "machinery" to make inhabitable universes (namely, ours). So, for me a chaotic big bang that somehow goes against entropy and mad a organized universe, without guidance, is impossible. |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Dec 28, 2007 Views: 3093 | RE: Free will or not? Hi Taylor, "The precision of the universe clearly speaks out to a guided Big Bang. The Big Bang bringing to us what we have today in a chaotic method is, truly, next to impossible given the specific dimensions that have allowed us to be here." 1) There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that is 'precision of the universe'. What is so precise about it? We have planets smashing into each other, comets and asteroids smashing into planets, stars exploding, galaxies colliding, species being wiped out, etc. etc. Precision? 2) "..The specific conditions that have allowed us to be here". This is taking a view that is the complete opposite to reality. The universe was not designed to be perfect for the human race, or anything else. The human race - and every other living thing - evolved due to the conditions it found itself in. We evolved to survive the environment, the environment did not evolve to suit us. Your argument is the same as looking at the blind cave spider that never sees light and saying 'isn't it amazing how the universe was designed to suit that blind spider'. The only reason the spider is now blind is because it moved into a dark cave because it could better survive there. I think you are totally ignoring Darwin and evolution. Not to mention all the fossil records that show evolution. They do not show design. |
| Posted By: jerry Posted On: Sep 10, 2008 Views: 2969 | RE: Free will or not? i dont see the point of you scientists doing that you were riskin the whole worlds lives including yours. you shouldve asked the whole world before it happened. people have been scared 2 death because of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so i dont see the point. |
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