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| Posted By: Stethoscope Boy Posted On: Dec 9, 2008 Views: 967 | Time is Infinite continued... So Ridler said that if it had one end but their was no other end it is infinite. He said that time began and will never end. You said that because it had a beginning it can't be infinite. I find this very hard to grasp because if something has no end but a beginning what is the term we use if not infinite. If numbers increase forever how is that not an infinite amount of numbers. I know your probably frustrated with this topic, but I would appreciate your response. |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Dec 9, 2008 Views: 962 | RE: Time is Infinite continued... Yes I have explained this a number of times but will do so again. Infinity allows no boundary, no limit, no end. A beginning is a boundary, it's that simple. Suppose you were in a space ship and came across a length of rope that stretched away through space in both directions as far as the eye could see. Imagine you decided to follow that rope to see where it went and eventually came to the end of it. Would you accept that the rope was infinite in length? I think not! It would make no difference if you found a label on the end saying "This rope is infinite because this is the beginning not an end". It doesn't matter what label you put on it, an end is and end! I hope that clears it up. I really do! Regarding numbers, my argument about infinity does not apply to mathematics and I make that clear in my article, numbers are infinite. Anyway numbers do not have a beginning, they stretch to infinity in both the positive and negative values. However, my argument is about 'real' solid objects, not abstracts. |
| Posted By: Stethoscope Boy Posted On: Dec 10, 2008 Views: 955 | RE: RE: Time is Infinite continued... Alright thanks But if the rope is going on forever in that one direction is it not infinitly going on in that direction? I have read your article on infinity and I do understand the definition you use to describe infinite and I agree with it, and I apoligize for you having to clarify this for me. What is the term we use of this rope lasting forever in one direction called if not infinite. |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Dec 10, 2008 Views: 953 | RE: Time is Infinite continued... "What is the term we use of this rope lasting forever in one direction called if not infinite." It doesn't matter what you call it, call it Harry if you like. The point is how we define infinity. We cannot have infinity if it only goes in one direction, that would be a different definition of the word infinity. If you want to describe the rope as going on forever in only one direction then you cannot use the word infinity. If you do then you are using a different definition of the word to the one I am using. You could if you wanted create your own definition of infinity as anything over a metre long and then use that in your own discussion, as long as you make it clear at the start what your definition is. I decided to use the more conventional one where infinity allows of no boundary, no limit, no end, it is all there is. Using that definition a rope can not be described as being infinity long if it has a beginning, which after all is only and end if you are coming from the opposite direction. I can't make it any clearer than that. |
| Posted By: Stethoscope Boy Posted On: Dec 10, 2008 Views: 950 | RE: Time is Infinite continued... Please do not insult me for this comment, I am still very young and am prone to make mistakes. I know your fed up with this argument but I thank you for your patience. I'm aware there may be some sort of logical error I made in the description of this little thought experiment, but as far as I could see from reading it over there isn't. I would again greatly appreciate your response. Say we have this rope with one end stationary, and the other end is increasing at a rate of 1 meter per second, and will increase at this rate forever. Lets call this rope time. Now say we stop time from increasing and get a marker and mark the center of the rope when time has stopped. Now lets say this mark we made was a magic mark that will always stay in the exact center of the rope as it increases in length. Therefore, as we let time continue, the distance from the center to the beginning of the rope will continuosly increase. Would this not therefore mean that in a sense the rope is increasing on BOTH sides because the length between the center of the rope and each end will always be increasing, approaching infinity. |
| Posted By: Kevin Posted On: Dec 12, 2008 Views: 944 | RE: RE: Time is Infinite continued... I think there is an error in your logic. Once you determine that the "mark" on the center of your rope continues to stay in the center as the rope increases length you have effectively made the rope no longer stationary and therefore it would have no beginning. Since the "mark" that determines the center is constantly moving than the distance between the center and the beginning is always moving and therefore you have no boundary on the beginning. For example, an outside observer who is always directly across from the "mark" in the center would notice that the beginning and end of the rope are both moving away from him since he is constantly moving away from the beginning (since the center "mark" is moving away from it) and the end is constantly increasing. That may not make sense but I hope it cleared it up a little bit. So anyways once you place the magic "mark" on the rope that always stays in the center as the rope increases, you have taken away the boundary from the beginning of the rope which makes it infinite! |
| Posted By: Stethoscope Boy Posted On: Dec 13, 2008 Views: 942 | RE: Time is Infinite continued... Thanks for your reply Well you actuelly agreed with my point, I was trying to determine if that did make it infinite, and you say it does, so ok. So according to you, if it has a beginning it can be infinite. I would still like to hear Keith's thoughts though. |
| Posted By: Stethoscope Boy Posted On: Dec 13, 2008 Views: 941 | RE: Time is Infinite continued... Oh sh*t sorry, I just read your comment again, We might have to say that this rope can add unto itself, from the beginning, not like a real rope that has a set length to it already. Because ropes have a set length in the real world, saying that the rope acts like this we would have to say that the rope was already infinite to be able to go on forever. Just remember that I'm talking about time, and how time began at the big bang (and lets just say), it will go forever. |
| Posted By: Kevin Posted On: Dec 13, 2008 Views: 938 | RE: Time is Infinite continued... I don't know. I think that time will only continue to last as long as the universe lasts. Since time is some sort of dimension, just like the three we are familiar with, it only only be infinite as long as the universe continues to exist. And since were not sure whether the universe will continue to expand forever or if it will it collapse back down to a singularity, i'm not sure if we can say time will go on forever. Its all up to speculation and personal belief I guess. |
| Posted By: Stethoscope Boy Posted On: Dec 14, 2008 Views: 933 | RE: Time is Infinite continued... yah true, but the argument was assuming that the universe will expaand forever and time will last forever. |
| Posted By: Kevin Posted On: Dec 15, 2008 Views: 928 | RE: Time is Infinite continued... Well then I guess its only infinite in the forward direction. Like Keith has said it can't be truly "infinite" if we know where the beginning is. It goes in both directions. Since we know exactly when (or pretty close to) the universe was created time is not truly "infinite" in the limitless boundaryless sense no matter if it lasts forever. |
| Posted By: sundog Posted On: Dec 31, 2008 Views: 907 | RE: RE: Time is Infinite continued... Sorry I don't buy into the singular Big bang. Or even the simple Earth centric singular universe theory. We are experiencing the most recent big bang to be sure....but what about the previous one.....and the next? And what about the other non Earth centric big bang universes? We are talking about infinity right? I think we get too caught up in materialistic concepts. Who says the true Universe is limited to the existence of energy and matter... what about simple space.... cold, empty, dark space...waiting for us to populate it with "stuff"....like big bangs and turtles. Infinity extends beyond simple three dimensional mile markers. Existence has always been everywhere, and it always will be. The Big Bangs are simply events repeated ad infinitum separated only by infinite time. It's turtles all the way down right? |