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Posted By: ZX9 Posted On: Apr 8, 2009 Views: 1469	The argument of an 11 year old... "Okay with that everyone? Cavemen did not exist. This just keeps getting worse. I wonder what planet this idiot lives on? Unbelievable! As a matter of fact they did in a way record their history with their cave paintings. Okay?" You say they are not real, but then you refer to them as if they are. And you did not list all my points in that. Also, just because somethiong is from the Watchtower, does not mean it is wrong. That is mathematics, not opinion: "The odds of even one simple protein molecule forming by chance are 1 in 10 to the 113th power, and thousands of different proteins are needed to form life..." Also, so what if I believe in religion? Obviously, you do not. That is not a scientific argument. Fine, personally I am glad you will not reply to this, because that means misc. people will have a chance to. You have mo proof either but to say I am idiotic and make everything up. It is not much of a victory to beat me anyway. I have noticed that you do not read all of my posts. If you did, you would see my answers to nearly EVERY ONE of your defenses. "In summary, ZX9 produces a load of totally inaccurate and nonsensical "facts" about evolution" Ok, first of all, this is an example of your own ignorance. I spent an hour researching for that post, and you spent probably 5 minutes typing your reply. Congratulations, on 'beating' an 11 year old, -ZX9
Posted By: Kevin Posted On: Apr 9, 2009 Views: 1462	RE: RE: The argument of an 11 year old... ZX9, I have been reading the comments you and Keith have been posting and I chose not to intervene because I did not think it was right to argue with an 11 year old about this stuff. I do not intend to be mean when I say this, but honestly you are only eleven and your level of knowledge can honestly not truly comprehend evolution and its true nature. Its not anything against you personally, its just that children cannot comprehend abstract concepts very well, only concrete ones. For example, children cannot comprehend how the Sun is millions of times bigger than the Moon, becuase they look exactly the same size. Similarly, it is just too abstract for you to truly comprehend the nature of evolution and how it works. Your arguments are based no real evidence at all and thats okay; your only eleven and it would be foolish to assume you understand how to form a real argument. I'm not trying to be condescending or anything like that. I commend you for at least being this interested in subjects like this at such a young age, but I hope that when you mature and develop you will learn to base your opinions on evidence and scientific truth. The evidence supporting evolution is absolutely astounding. Scientists are constantly piling on the evidence supporting Darwin's theory; it is a FACT of science that evolution is occuring. First, I will give a short explanation of evolution because I'm assuming you have a distorted view of what it really is. Evolution is NOT a random process. While of course, evolution occurs mostly due to random mutations in the germ line cells of an organism and crossing over/random assortment during cellular meiosis it is GUIDED by natural selection. All organisms have two primal needs: survival and reproduction. Any RANDOM mutation that causes reduced ability of the organism to survive or reproduce is obviously selected against BECAUSE THOSE MUTATIONS ARE NOT PASSED ON TO THE ORGANISMS OFFSPRING, SO THE MUTATION CANNOT BE SPREAD THROUGH A POPULATION. On the other hand, mutations that enhance an organisms ability to survive or reproduce are selected for BECAUSE THESE MUTATIONS SPREAD THROUGH THE SPECIES (SINCE ORGANISMS WITH THESE MUTATIONS LIVE LONGER AND REPRODUCE MORE AND THUS THEIR GENETIC INFORMATION CONTAINING THE MUTATION CAN BE PASSED ON THROUGH GENERATIONS). These mutations that are selected for accumulate within a population and can cause drastic changes to the genotype and phenotype of a species over time. So how can organisms become seperate species? If a given species is separated into two or more groups (such as moving to a new, isolated land mass), then over time random mutations will occur within these different groups and cause the groups to develop different genomes, since they are separated from one another and live in different environments. Because they live in different environments, different mutations will benefit them and therefore over time they will diverge into two seperate species (if they are completely seprated and cannot reproduce with one another). I hope this explanation helps you somewhat ZX9. I know it is difficult to escape the religiosity of America. But there is nothing wrong with not believing in a Christian God. Honesltly, just think ZX9 if you grew up in Africa, or Iraq, or in Ancient Greece you would not believe in the God you do now; how can the thousands of other religions all be wrong and your one be right? Once your become older, I hope you realize that people use religion as way to control the masses and keep them under their rule. The leaders of this world use religion to suppress uprisings and keep everyone in line. You need to escape the false world of religion and live in reality. The universe is far more mysterious and wonderful than religion makes it to be. There is so much more out there and so much more amazing things in the universe then religion reveals. My God does not part seas or turn water into wine; my God is the Universe; we are all part of it. Me, you, Keith, every single atom in this Universe is all one. There is no supernatural, omnipotent God watching over us in heaven; thinking this way is so primitive and out of touch with reality. I hope you will see this one day ZX9. I live everyday in pure awe and amazement of the Universe in which we live. The feeling of seeing the Universe for what it really is and escaping the shambles of our STUPID RELIGIONS is indescribable. The evidence is out there; allow yourself to think rationally and intelligently. I suggest you listen to scientists such as Richard Dawkins, Chris Hitches, or Dan Dennett if you want to learn the TRUTH about evolution and the lies of religion.
Posted By: Kevin Posted On: Apr 9, 2009 Views: 1461	RE: The argument of an 11 year old... Sorry, its Chris HITCHENS. Bad typo on my part.
Posted By: Kevin Posted On: Apr 11, 2009 Views: 1452	RE: The argument of an 11 year old... And also ZX9, if you really think about it no matter how improbable it is for proteins to for they obviously DO FORM. But the argument that only God could have the power or knowledge to create proteins or life in general does not help to explain anything at all. Becuase no matter how improbable it is for life to form randomly it is infinitely more improbable for something even greater (i.e. God) to exist that creates life. God does not help AT ALL to explain how proteins, life, or the universe was created. All God does is take all those mysterious and amazing things we can't exlain and lump them together into one enormous improbability of God existing. Becuase we can't fully describe how the universe was created, how could it help at all to say it was created by something else THAT ALSO CANNOT BE EXPLAINED. There is no scientific or logical way to test for the existence of God. You really need to learn how to think everything through.
Posted By: ZX9 Posted On: Apr 11, 2009 Views: 1449	RE: The argument of an 11 year old... My question that has still not been answered: WHY does evolution occur? Why do species change? Why (if we are at the top of the evolutionary chain, and we all originated from one cell) isn't every life form human? Are you saying that animals with legs will swim then eventually their descendents will grow fins? It has no explanation. It is simply look this animal is similar, but not the same; this animal needed to better suit its environment; this must have come from this beecause of this... It has no deeply scientific answer. You have no down-to-the-cell proof of this change. You have not found any DNA 'code' to direct change when needed. You have no flat out proof. You can talk-the-talk all you want, "it is hard to escape the religiousness...", but that won't do much. I would like scientific proof, something you and Keith can't seem to give. I would like to meet one of you and actuall discuss this...not that I would. It would be interesting though...but annoying to argue an infinite argument. (OK not infinite, obviously) Perhaps you could give answers, or perhaps you can continue to address me as an 11 year old. I am extremely tempted to use one of my friends computers, get on here, and act like some 50 year old. Tha way you would read my posts, and perhaps consider them, or consider the small bits of obviousness I include to prove them. "Darwin's theory", you say. A theory it still is. There is NO down-to-earth proof. Or give me some. You can reply with a another you-know-nothing thing oryou can give me evidence. Take your pick. BTW, it is secretly satisfying when you say I'm stupid; it means you have nothing scientific to say!
Posted By: ZX9 Posted On: Apr 11, 2009 Views: 1448	RE: The argument of an 11 year old... I would prefer you to address other things from the other topic so that I do not end up endlessly repeating myself. This was something I posted in reply to Keith giving things that were used to date things (this was after Keith AGREED that carbon dating was flawed, so it is not discussed): "OK:"historical records, tree ring patterns, soil strata, other finds, etc, etc." First, historical records are generally not accurate more than a few thousand years. Problems such as mistranslation, misinterpretation, and other things make it hard to get anything accurate extremely far back. Especially not "millions or billions" of years back. Lol, did cavemen, not that I believe in them, record their history? Then tree ring patterns; how far back do you find trees? A few hundred years? They decay and rot. They do not last for "millions or billions" of years. Soil strata is also incorrect, due to the fact that you can not date how long the rock cycle takes and the date of the layers IS BASED OFF OF OTHER THINGS(if not the approximate length of the rock cycle, which as I said can NEVER be correctly inputted, no matter how many factors you have). Other things in the layers of soil also must be dated, so that is also a flawed source of dating. Ok if there is something I'm missing on this, I'm not a rock scientist, I'm just 11. BTW, I will hopefully have something for your comeback too. Other finds is just to put a 4th thing on there;other finds have to be dated too! What were they dated from. OK some of your things work for a short time before now, but not, as you claim, millions(or billions, lol) of years. I thank you for giving 'evidence', but I have shown undeniable flaws in them." END OF QUOTE Perhaps you can fill me in on other dating methods, because I have discarded the above: historical records, tree ring patterns, soil strata, other finds.
Posted By: ZX9 Posted On: Apr 11, 2009 Views: 1446	RE: The argument of an 11 year old... Ok, basically all you say is religion is fake; no evidence there, lol. "survival and reproduction" If that's all cells have, then how did they evolve? That practically disproves you. If that IS IT then how did they evolve!!!!!! I have repeatedly asked this question, in the same or different forms. If all cells 'care' about is that, then why did they need to 'change' to suit their environment? YOU, for the last time, GIVE NO PROOF*. *I have said this UNCOUNTABLE to Keith also.
Posted By: Kevin Posted On: Apr 12, 2009 Views: 1441	RE: The argument of an 11 year old... ZX9, there is NO PROOF. There is only OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE. Of course, we cannot answer WHY evolution occurs or WHY we are here. These are the most mysterious questions we can ask. Just becuase religion has an answer for these question does not mean it is right. You have to understand that. Just because someone can give you a straight answer to a question does not mean they are right. Especially when religion has no evidence at all. Like I've said the bible is complete bulls***. There is not one thing written in the bible written on any direct evidence at all. Even the gospels detailing Jesus' life were written decades or centuries after his death. Just think about how little true information we have about things that happened 100 years ago today let alone back in those times. Everything written in the bible is based on nothing at all. Also, it is the mechanism of duplicating and recombining DNA that causes these mutations to occur and for evolution to take place. I'll explain it one more time to you. In order for a cell to divide it must undergo either mitosis or meiosis (depending if it is a normal body cell or sperm/egg cells). During the cell division the DNA is replicated by enzymes such as DNA polymerase. When this replication is occuring every 100,000 base pairs or an error occurs. This "error" is a misplacement of a DNA nucleotide on the new DNA strand being replicated. This is the first type of error and keep this in mind. Furthermore, during cell division the DNA undergoes a process called "crossing over". This is when whole segments of the DNA are transferred to a completely different section within in the cell. Basically, it rearranges whole segments of the DNA sequence. Furthermore, "random assortment" also occurs during cell division (actually only in meiosis). Now ZX9 you have to understand that all of these processes are very complicated to explain, even to a college student like myself and I've left out a lot of information but you should be able to get the point. So anyways to continue. The whole purpose of DNA is that it codes for the proteins and other molecules that reside in each cell. A specific sequence of DNA codes for a specific protein to be made. So if you change the order of the sequence or the position of this sequence within the DNA different proteins will be made in different amounts. The ways the sequence of DNA is switched were described above. Over a long period of time the sequence of DNA completely changes. Whole sections can be added, deleted, or switched around. And like I said only mutations that benefit the organisms ability to survive or reproduce will get passed on to further generations. I have left out a lot of information for you ZX9. It takes years of learning to fully understand the process of evolution and cell division but it is completely foolish of you to claim there is no proof. You simply have not and cannot learn it yet. It will take you years to master the concepts of evolution, but believe me I could reply to your questions for weeks and you'd still never be able to learn it all at your age. One last thing. Other animals exist becuase when a mutation gets spread throughout a species and causes evolution to occur, that does not mean every other organism dies out. Other organisms within a species that do not come in contact with the mutation will continue to grow and reproduce unless they are wiped out by the new organisms that are more fit to survive. For example, monkeys still exist today becuase it was only a small segment of monkeys that developed the mutations that led to the evolution of mankind. Yet, the monkeys that did not reproduce with those that had the mutation were able to keep living becuase we did not kill all of them out. BUT we humans did cause many other "subhuman" species to go extinct. You see, monkeys did not directly evolve into humans. There were several other types of "almost" human primates that existed up to 10,000 years ago. Some of these species include Homo Erectus, Homo Neanderthalis and also Homo Sapiens (homo sapiens are us if you didn't know taht). We killed out all of these other "subhuman" species becuase they competed for the same land as we did. There fossils can be found over the entire globe. I suggest you look this up. You have a lot to learn ZX9, you are still a young child. I am not going to continue to reply to your posts simply becuase as I said it will takes years for you to fully understand evolution and I don't have the time to teach you everything. Just know that when you get to high school and college you will learn and understand and look back at this time and laugh at how you looked at the world.
Posted By: ZX9 Posted On: Apr 13, 2009 Views: 1439	RE: The argument of an 11 year old... Read my latest post on 'EVOLUTION' Kevin. It answers the majority of your stuff, or at least disproves some. It shows how extremely important evolutionary finds are fake, real humans, forgery, wild pig teeth, donkey bones.... Read it. If those 'important evolutionary finds' are fake, I wonder what happens to science? Evolution has sadly become the basis for science; everything is based upon it. Once creationists finally win over, science will be back to square--OK not one.
Posted By: ZX9 Posted On: Apr 13, 2009 Views: 1437	RE: The argument of an 11 year old... All right... DNA changes. Yes. But not like that! It would take far more than your billions of years(unless of course you can SHOW ME a link or something to an actual calculation, but I personally would add a billion years to it, for all the interference over such a long period. It's not like all the animal/organism whatever wants to do is evolve!) ====================================================== NOTE FROM KEITH: How to tell when you are dealing with an idiot. He wants to see "an actual calculation" showing how long evolution takes. Eh! Has he ANY idea what he is talking about? (Falls of chair laughing) But whatever it is he considers it wrong and "would add a billion years to it". (Now rolling about on floor clutching sides.) What an idiot! Mr. super smart 11 year old who doesn´t even believe in evolution thinks he knows more about it then the best experts in the world and thinks you can enter evolutionary years into a calculator! ====================================================== Oh yeah, read this page: http://www.nwcreation.net/evolutionfraud.html Like I said, if these finds are wrong, which they are, then science gets a push backwards (for evolutionists, which, sadly, science is nearly taken over by).
Posted By: Mike Posted On: Apr 24, 2009 Views: 1415	RE: The argument of an 11 year old... Just as a preemptive statement, I am a High school student, who is 16, 5 years older then you. Now seriously listen, when i was your age (yes I still remember)I HATED when people patronized me, I HATED it. so I know how you feel. But once in a while you just have to realize that right now your brain (mine too actually) is going through a MASSIVE amount of growth, your ENTIRE frontal area of your brain (the area that effects logic, reasoning and conceptual ideas) is being activated. even though all of these facts laid out before you by Kevin seem to be false from your perspective, that does not automatically make the perspectives of hundreds and thousands of educated men completely false. From the information you have seen and gathered at this point in your life, yeah, none of this is "sound" evidence to you. But I ask you this, did you search for a specific answer to your question when were doing research, because if that is the case then you will find the answer you were looking for. All I ask of you is to go and talk to a professor via email from a major university, and they will, and I am sure of this, give you all the "down to earth proof" you can handle. Dont get me wrong either, I am only fifteen, my knowledge of these subjects is only what I have learned from a Nobel laureate who gives seminars at the program I attend during the summer, and from people who have studied these subjects for many years in order to get their doctorates at Princeton, Northwestern and Harvard. - Also, if your looking for proof of the age of the earth, look up radio-active isotope dating. it is far and away the most stable and accurate form of molecular dating. keep in mind that the radioactive elements tested cannot be broken down or altered by anything other then their own steady and well known intervals of self decomposition,known as a half life. -if you go to a good school you'll learn all you need to know about what you are talking about in freshmen bio. Also, you say before that carbon dating is
Posted By: mike Posted On: Apr 24, 2009 Views: 1414	RE: The argument of an 11 year old... forget that last line there, typo
Posted By: mike Posted On: Apr 24, 2009 Views: 1410	RE: The argument of an 11 year old... readers of my previous post, there were sooo many errors in that, my fault i was pretty tired. but I hope you got the idea I was trying to convey
Posted By: Lucas Holcomb Posted On: May 1, 2009 Views: 1401	RE: RE: The argument of an 11 year old... Ok, to the 11 year old... a lot of your arguments don't make sense but some are well founded, good job. Though I mainly agree with Kevin on everything. I am in fact Christian and I believe if Kevin was to scientifically study the bible he would find a lot of evidence in it of a much higher understanding of the universe then they could have had back then. The bible describes the universe as a sheet, wound up arund a center point, and then through time unraveled. this is a perfect example of our universe. It also describes the best way to avoid nuclear radiation in a time of nuclear war.. well the best way if you have no choice to be around it lol. So I think Kevin should study the bible scientifically, do not dismiss God because you don't believe in him that is the same thing the 11 year old is doing to your facts.
Posted By: Luke Posted On: Jun 11, 2009 Views: 1374	RE: RE: The argument of an 11 year old... I want to answer one particular question. "WHY does evolution occur? Why do species change? Why (if we are at the top of the evolutionary chain, and we all originated from one cell) isn't every life form human?" The answer as to why evolution occurs is that it is advantageous to happen. Suppose for a moment that you and I are both frogs. You were gifted with naturally powerful legs, me not so much. We are both swimming along a pond, when a big fish comes up and tries to eat us. You being a much greater swimmer has a much greater chance of escaping than I do. Given those odds, I get eaten, you live, have offspring, and those babies acquire your genetic disposition for strong legs. It's really that simple. Each trait we have must be to our advantage, if it isn't someone out competes us, and we get eaten (if we are prey animals), or starve (if we are predator animals). Different species occur when two organisms of the same species have different traits that work to their advantage. Again for the frog example, you have strong legs, and I don't...but my skin is a little darker, and looks more like the plant life living in the pond. We both live in this case, but due to our different traits, if our ancestors carry it on....over, and over and over and over....eventually two new species are created. Your next question is a very good one, however ill informed. As my biology professor said time and time again, "No one species is any more evolved than any other." You are no more evolved than mere earth worms rolling around in the dirt. Why not? Because an equal amount of time has passed in evolution for the earthworm and you to exist (the beginning of life). The worms might seem more simpler than us, but if you were buried underground, trying to live off of whatever it is that earthworms eat, you'd die. You're no more evolved than a minnow, place you in its environment, and it and yours, and you'd both die. All species are equally as evolved as each other. We think we are the best because of our great intelligence. But, look at the cost, pound for pound we are probably the physically weakest animal alive today. The reason why we couldn't keep our great bodies, is because a large head, and a large body is too taxing on the mother's body.

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