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| Posted By: jess Posted On: May 9, 2009 Views: 1309 | predications? yes i do tha future can be predicated |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: May 9, 2009 Views: 1307 | RE: predications? I think you mean predicted? You really think the future can be predicted? In that case the future is already set and nothing we do can change it. It would mean that we have no free will and are merely robots following a pre-set course. I can´t believe that, I believe we have free will. |
| Posted By: jess Posted On: May 11, 2009 Views: 1299 | RE: RE: predications? i stronly believe (yes) tha future , past can be predicated don't ask me why!!!tha way i see it there r things in tha past that have happened to me, that came true some of them not so true but most of them!!! personaly i'll take every day as it comes!! that's tha way i see it |
| Posted By: Kevin Posted On: Jun 4, 2009 Views: 1287 | RE: predications? I'm not sure how I feel about free will. I mean of course it seems like we have free will but then the question arises...How can free will emerge from a universe where all else is pre-determinable? And also, where do we draw the line between free will or predetermined decisions? I feel it could be very possible that our brains are just so complex we create an illusion of free will. I mean isn't the only difference between a single celled organism and us, complexity? How could free will simply arise out of greater complexity? I'm not sure but to me it seems plausable that free will is only an illusion. I mean if you try to think about where all your thoughts come from and why you do certain things it seems that everything you do or say is simply a reaction to some stimulus, which implies pre-determined actions. I mean an idea that you come up with in your mind only arises because of the certain set of conditions in your environment at that instant, so maybe it was already pre-determinable (through the laws of physics and other scientific measures) that every condition at that instant would be as such, causing you to come up with that exact idea at that exact time. It is possible that the number of different conditions and the complexity contained within them are just to great for us to calculate now. Does that make any sense lol? |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Jun 4, 2009 Views: 1285 | RE: predications? Well, I still feel that given say a choice of eating the sausage on the left of my plate before the one on the right is me exercising my free will. It makes no difference which I eat first, or what has happened before, I am making a free choice. |
| Posted By: Kevin Posted On: Jun 4, 2009 Views: 1283 | RE: predications? Well what I'm saying is that it just seems like a free choice becuase you are unaware of all of the given conditions at that given moment. Perhaps because of all of the conditions of the universe at that instant there really is no other decision you can make, no matter what you are going to choose the one on the left. Of course, looking back you can always say well nothing was "stopping" me from choosing the one on the right and therefore I made a "choice." But perhaps you are simply unaware of all conditions at the instant you decided to take the one on the left. I mean are we really making choices? Or is it that when we think we are choosing something, what really is going on is that the choice you make is already predetermined by the given conditions of the universe and the perceived "choice" you make is simply your conscious state perceiving the decision you have already been determined to make. Of course, when your consciousness perceives what choice you are making at that instant you always instantly perceive that you "could" have made the other choice giving the illusion of free will. Because when you imply there is free will what you are really saying is that there can be pure randomness in the universe, which it seems is not the case (excluding quantum physics which we cannot say whether it is random or not at this point, even though it seems random it is still possible that there is pre-determined events at the quantam level but we cannot recognize the patterns with our current level of intelligence). I'm not saying there is or isn't free will. And frankly, I find it strange you are so certain that there is free will. I figured you would be agnostic about. Since there are virtually no real tests for free will no one can accurately claim if there is or isn't. Its no different than believing in religion or TK. Just because some people believe and want there to be an omnipotent God does not have any influence on whethere there is or isn't. Likewise just becuase it seems we have free will I think it is wrong and hypocritical of you to assert that there is free will, without being able to put forth any justifiable evidence for your belief. |
| Posted By: Kevin Posted On: Jun 4, 2009 Views: 1282 | RE: predications? Becuase any evidence you put forth to argue for free will(again excluding quantam mechanics)can also be argued for not having free will. If you say well I chose the sausage on the left so there is free will, I can say "No you just think you chose the sausage on the left but becuase of the given state of the universe at that instant there was no other choice that you were going to make at that moment, even though looking backwards you "could" choose the other sausage in reality you couldn't becuase of the state of the universe at that moment." Do you see what I'm saying, no evidence can be put forth for either side because they will always cancel each other out. It is impossible to make an objective opinion on something as inherently subjective as free will, hence all we can say with accuracy is that we don't know and perhaps we can never know. |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Jun 4, 2009 Views: 1278 | RE: predications? Yes, I follow what you are saying, whatever we think - free will or not - cannot be proven one way or the other and is therefore just a belief. This is exactly the point I make on my web page. However, if we do not have any free will, if every action, every choice we make, is as a result of what happened before, then what is the point in having intelligence? Without free will we would be no more than a mindless automaton blindly following a predetermined course that we have no influence on whatsoever. I find that very hard to believe. It would also mean there is no such thing as chance or random and that we are not responsible for our actions. That being the case it would seem very wrong to imprison or execute people wouldn´t it? How could you justify it? |
| Posted By: Kevin Posted On: Jun 5, 2009 Views: 1276 | RE: predications? Right, I agree with you completely. If the universe truly is predetermined then no we could noy hold anyone accountable for their actions and it would be "wrong" to criminalize people. But obviously, it seems like it is wrong for things to be that way despite whether we have free will or not. Free will is one of the most frustrating topics. I mean we either have free will or we don't yet both sides of the question run into several paradoxes and have major problems. I constantly flip-flop over which side I think is more plausible but I think I agree with you in thinking it more likely we do have free will. For one, I don't think I'd like a universe were I could not make any real decisions but secondly, we can't yet explain how it is possible for life to arise from non-life but clearly it has occured at least once in the universe (i.e. our planet) which I think is even stranger and more improbable then free-will and randomness arising from pre-determinability, so I think it is possible as well. |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Jun 6, 2009 Views: 1270 | RE: predications? The creation of life is a difficult one. However, just imagine that at some future point scientist create life in the lab simply by mixing together pre-existing inert raw materials under the right conditions, and I think that could happen. How will that change people´s beliefs? Some will say it shows that it was not necessary for God to create life because it can happen spontaneously, therefore there is no longer any reason to suppose that God exists. Others will say it will mean that God does exist and we have achieved God like powers. Funny old world isn´t it? |
| Posted By: Maxim Dvoytsin Posted On: Jul 24, 2009 Views: 1245 | RE: predications? I agree with Kevin.Could write the same.There is more reasons to accept that there is no free will than otherwise.Though I see Keith Mayes's point,it is really confusing when think you're only performer of a written script as well as it is painful to think you're only an 'accidental'. |