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Posted By: roberta Forrest Posted On: Apr 4, 2008 Views: 1100	church members critical of pastors yes, in the past pastors were more respected and revered. is the negative change due to the high number of tv preachers who have fallen into sin? does the mega churches with the superstar preacher/worship leader cause a cynicism? i dont know. i am ashamed to admit that i have been critical and examining church leadership through a magnifying glass. then i read the book 'walking with the shepherd' and my heart broke for pastors, their wives and children. we attend a great church and an amazing pastor, but i am aware of the devils schemes to cause division and criticism and i am guarding my heart diligently.
Posted By: PAW Posted On: Jan 9, 2008 Views: 953	Some ideas on church structure Sounds to me like you have not crucified your flesh. Follow Jesus to the cross and die! He is our example of obedience and humility!
Posted By: oceanwaves Posted On: Sep 26, 2007 Views: 1102	Church Structure (below) Regarding my prior comment, I may be very wrong about what I said. Thank you.
Posted By: oceanwaves Posted On: Sep 26, 2007 Views: 762	Some ideas on church structure This may be unpopular, but perhaps we need to really examine what Scriptures actually teach about pastors and other "offices". I don't have a definite opinion but I think we may be assuming that the manner in which our churches is run and organized is of God....not that it is wrong.....not that this should be an excuse for our sin and for the lack of love shown to pastors. We also have problems with pastors and people in the church who interfere in personal matters that they should not and in a very judgmental way. Not only are pastors and leaders hurt, shamed and judged but laypeople are also, and sometimes it is by pastors and leaders. I think the ideal that no one will ever criticize or speak negatively is difficult to reach. Perhaps teaching about love would help everyone. People also need to be taught HOW to handle their conflicts and disagreements properly, in love and not to just gossip. Maybe it would work better for all of us to admit that people ARE going to need to speak up when they feel hurt, and hopefully there would exist avenues for them to do so without going into sin and harming others and the church? Just a thought. I think the idea that no one should ever speak up other than a special board still reinforces authoritarian practices, unintentionally. While there is decency and order, we as Christians are not to operate like the world system, where the leaders order others around....and this is normal for the world. But we are supposed to be different, to lead by example, and not to lord it over others, and while the idea of having an overseeing board is a good one, there ALSO needs to be an avenue for the ordinary church members to speak out if they feel hurt or something bothers them. I don't see that avenue in the part of your website I read. And while having a board run a church may not be great, I have seen great problems with pastor run churches also. However, there are also cases in which lay people are badly abused and have no one to turn to. Now they are not allowed to share it with anyone or they are gossips. I don't know what the answer is, but I would hope this would be examined, also. This is a very important website and ministry. I think that knowing what the boundaries are will help everyone. A pastor should not be criticized for listening to God, running the basic direction of the Church, or disciplining in love where necessary. However, calling people out publicly, getting over involved in peoples' personal decisions, and appointing people in positions that they have no interest in, or gifting in, isn't going to help. Just as the Holy Spirit gifts a pastor, evangelist or a leader, He gifts all of us, and we all have a desire to use our gifts. While it is wrong to create strife or insist on it, I think many pastors are judging by the outward appearance, the income, the job, or even if they like someone, instead of realizing that the Holy Spirit must decide what kind of ministry people do. People can't just be appointed to a job by a boss.....in the church, we are given life and motivated by Jesus Himself. It is assumed in some churches to be OK and the pastor's right to just appoint people in various jobs. While that may not be wrong, and may be the pastor's right, I don't think it's God's best for the longrun. In my opinion (I may be wrong) a church should be a feeding and life giving place where people are encouraged to do whatever ministry God leads them to do, not just assumed that everyone is going to want to be an usher or greeter or to work in the church. Some will.....and that too needs to be respected as a real ministry from God. However some are called in less conventional ways...... Where in the Bible does it say that everyone who is not in leadership is automatically in the ministry of "helps"? This was taught in the churches I attended; and it isn't wrong in itself, it is one way to run a church......however, the ministry of "helps" is a God appointed function and gift JUST AS MUCH as is a pastor. You couldn't make a person called to be custodian into a preacher.....but in some places it is assumed the pastor can appoint people to be the custodian, Sunday school teacher, etc.....as if these "jobs" were for anyone, and at the pastor's will or just as a need to be filled by any faitful and moral member. That isn't wrong, but I don't think it is God's best.....when He calls a body of believers He calls each member, and each one already has function(s) and so it's best if we listen to Him and not just assume a structure and then fill it in...like filling in a crossword puzzle ....God's idea of a church may be much more unique and fluid, and not what we see around us. Perhaps we as Christians need to fast and/ or pray for each other more, to see God's vision and love for His Church and to be more sensitive to one another and His plan. I will try to be more sensitive to pastors and leaders......yes, they are subjected to expectations that are leftover psychological parental needs, which they cannot possibly meet. A pastor or leader cannot possibly be what everyone wants or expects, and we all need to be more sensitive to that. However, a pastor or leader is also not a dictator or a boss in the sense you will find in the world. We are exhorted NOT to have hierarchical spirit and structures as is normal in the world. I think part of our problem is we are disobeying and ignoring this instruction in the Word. We cannot expect the Church to run and be structured the way the world is and have spiritual results.....we cannot chase success and numbers, etc (nothing wrong in itself) but we need to find God's plan for each fellowship. The structure of our churches is not wrong in itself, and I don't mean to be critical, however it is possible it isn't God's best intention and this could be contributing to these kind of problems????? I could be wrong.....at any rate, we all need God's love for one another. I will certainly try to treat each pastor and leader better, not to try to force my agenda.....but I still am gunshy because I also don't want to be continually pressured and expected to do things that God hasn't called me to do, and not allowed to do things which are Biblical and not hurting others. I don't expect the church or pastor to have to allow or approve me to minister......however, I don't think they should try to stop me if what I want to do is Biblical and not using the name of the church. (A pastor and church should not be expected to be responsible for things they don't oversee and they cannot possibly oversee every single thing that God will lead people to do......and I know there are legal implications, too) We have a problem where people want to use their gifts and find no where in the church to serve because the avenues of service are so few or limited or so conventionally limited. This isn't anyone's fault, per se......just an observation. My solution is to have a healthy boundary: I have no right to insist or force anything on a pastor or church (even if I were right)....period. They have no right to tell me to do things or not to do things that they don't have Scripture to back them up on. They are free to request me to serve in a certain capacity as they choose and see best. However I have been also guilted and manipulated and used up all the while I was not allowed to do the things God put in my heart to do. I think this arises from misunderstanding and our human weaknesses. We should all be willing to pitch in where there are legitamite needs, whether it's our "ministry" or not, and serve.....but it's not healthy to assume that members will do this year in for years and years....it creates burnout among the lay persons. Maybe I'm wrong but I have a problem in just being a slave who has to be ordered around by a church or pastor......just as a pastor would not want to be told what to preach or do, why do we think it is OK for a pastor or leader to tell the Members of Christ what to do??? I realize we assume a leader is in a different position of authority and that may be true. However authority in the Bible is definitely different than that in the world. And I think this needs to be examined. God has called and apointed all of us already in specific functions. If we can allow one another to function (not in chaos or sin but decently and in love)......we would all be happier, and perhaps have less of these problems? Most people are happier when they are using their gifts and functioning..... too many churches only allow the few chosen to do anything but they want eveyrone else to do all the menial jobs, and I don't think this is a healthy model. Sin and selfishness and a lack of love are always going to cause problems among us. I'm not sure about these ideas and observations and I may be wrong but I put them out here for consideration. If we would maybe divide up some of the more menial jobs among us, or rotate them, and then allow people to minister, perhaps that would help. We will always need pastors, leaders but they need to remember they too are servants and not lord it over the sheep. The people need to love the leaders and pastors and not mistreat them. In short, we all need to repent and learn more about love.
Posted By: James+ Posted On: Mar 19, 2007 Views: 1067	Discipleship Sadly discipleship is not a requirement of church affiliation these days. Many things are being done, and there is a lot of busy-ness, however, basic discipleship (Jesus commanded us to "Go, make disciples...") is like a foreign concept in most local churches. Like discipleship, church discipline and the ministry of reconciliation are also foreign concepts in many modern churches. Speaking the truth is easy (and relative), speaking the truth in love, however, requires discernment. Without disciples, the Church cannot have discernment. Reconciliation is the basis of all spiritual healing. God does not hear the prayer of the non-repentant, hence, the foremost ministry of the Church (prayer) requires pray-ers to be reconciled to God and one another in order to be heard by God. "The church" (small 'c') it has been said, is: "A non-prophet organization." Sad, since it is to be a living organism, the mystical Body of Christ, and also as it is to be the prophetic voice of God in this present moment. It seems that what was normative in the Early Church has become foreign to the 'enlightened' churches of the western world. Democratic process is NOT Biblical, no where in Scripture did anyone 'vote' on anything. The Church did not operate on popular opinion, God was the sole object of worship not the 'seeker,' and the Holy Spirit 'built' the living tabernacle, not men. The Body of Christ is comprised of diverse interdependent living members, living stones, however, we in the western world seem to be building towers similar to those on the Plain of Shinar. Non nobis, Domine! (Not to us, to God alone the glory)
Posted By: Lynn Posted On: Oct 14, 2006 Views: 1222	Criticism Too many times the pastors are torn down by the wagging tongues of the church or the critical "joy slayers" that they work for. It seems as if when the Holy Spirit is present there is peace for a time, but before and after there is always conflict and judgementalism. There are so many that think, Well, what does the pastor do anyway? or worse, I could do better than them. They may be able to do better but for some reason God had put them(The pastors) in that position and they should be encouraged, not torn down. There are many Absolams in the churches of today, vying for position.
Posted By: christopher Posted On: Aug 1, 2006 Views: 1430	conflict and spiritual warfare I have discovered that church folks do not really want a shepherd and i believe they do not understand the role or authority of the pastor in the church.This is due in part to the reluctance of pastors to teach what the Bible says about pastors as well as what it says about the church and other offices such as deacons and elders. I also am convinced that the Holy Spirit is not wanted in many of our churches because then people would become insecure as they "lost control". I am a very evangelistic pastor and when I begin to lead my people to evangelize I am always attacked with brutal Satanic force!! Honestly I am getting tired of it! It would be easier if the attacks came from outside the church but they rarely do. Without exception every time Satan has attacked my ministry he has chosen to use church folk who inevitably attack my family to get to me. I never thought that my 2,3, & 4 year old children would be attacked but they have been now on two ocassions!!! Please pray for us. We are struggling and hurting. We know that God has called us here but the attacks are unrelenting recently and always unfair. I never understood why so many pastors quit....well now i know it is how their congregations treat them!
Posted By: Sheila; wife of a Pastor Posted On: Aug 1, 2006 Views: 1081	this generation I do believe that people are far more critical than ever before because of the times that we are living in for one. For number two, Leaders are not making a stand, they are compromising the word of God to please what is in the pew. God tells us to go into the vineyard and work and he will pay what is right. If we do what we are commissioned to do, he will bring the increase. I was raised non-denominational. But I am now married to a Pastor in which God takes us to various denominations to Pastor. The church's are not run by the Holy Spirit any longer but by mans ways. When the Pastor teaches the truth unadulterated, feathers are automatically ruffled. We as leaders better do as God tells us to do and stop worrying about what everyone in the pews is saying.
Posted By: Kim Wenzel Posted On: Dec 11, 2004 Views: 1780	Respond to Robert in Austraila Robert, if you happen to see this comment page, can you please email me at my personal address: kimwenzel@datalinkok.com God bless you brother, Kim
Posted By: Robert Posted On: Dec 7, 2004 Views: 1786	Pastoral Expectations & Duties Where do I start. Today I sat with a couple who want me to marry them in a big flash wedding next year with all the trimmings. I am sort of being blackmailed as they are living together but I have been assured that there is nothing happening between them. (They are committed Christians) People are asking questions about their living arrangements and the couple have actually lied so they can appease the inquirers. They don't care what people think but will lie to let them think that everything is ok. This problem is that if I do not marry them I do not love them. (Their actual words to others in the Church) How conditional is that. Well I am finding it diffucult and am getting pressured from all angles. In a way I wish they would just go and get married in the registry office and save me the trouble. Just a note of this living arrangements. They started living together as committed Christians while they were members of our congregation and tried to cover up their situation. Robert (Snr Pastor Australia)
Posted By: Prophetess Dolores James Posted On: Sep 6, 2004 Views: 1420	Disrespect Within The Church I have been in ministry for over 40 years, and Pastors are the ones that God sends me to mostly, besides other types of ministry. Within the church scene I have found disrespect among pastor's wives and certain lead members. I have seen pastors throw up their hands and either leave or just die. That to me has been very painful. Just recently I have encountered such a situation and it has effected several of my family who are attending the church. I am located in the North Carolina area at this time, and either the wives are hateful, or very controlling. Pastors sometime just look at me and shake their heads, because seemly they may have allowed this situation to continue to long... I am building a Healing the Hurting Shepherds page on my website...and in my browsing I found this site. There are many times that I too need to be in contact with someone that can be trusted and will help pray and counsel me. I am in leadership of a International Ministry and it is not the easist, but I refuse to quit. Pray for me as I minister to leadership... Prophetess Dolores James www.standingontherock.org
Posted By: Prophetess Dolores James Posted On: Sep 6, 2004 Views: 911	Disrespect Within The Church I have been in ministry for over 40 years, and Pastors are the ones that God sends me to mostly, besides other types of ministry. Within the church scene I have found disrespect among pastor's wives and certain lead members. I have seen pastors through up their hands and either leave or just die. That to me has been very painful. Just recently I have encountered such a situation and it has effected several of my family who are attending the church. I am located in the North Carolina area at this time, and either the wives are hateful, or very controlling. Pastors sometime just look at me and shake their heads, because seemly they may have allowed this situation to continue to long... I am building a Healing the Hurting Shepherds page on my website...and in my browsing I found this site. There are many times that I too need to be in contact with someone that can be trusted and will help pray and counsel me. I am in leadership of a International Ministry and it is not the easist, but I refuse to quit. Pray for me as I minister to leadership... Prophetess Dolores James www.standingontherock.org
Posted By: Rev Ron Bryant Posted On: Aug 23, 2004 Views: 938	critical churches I do feel that the churches are more critical of pastors than what they were in the past, but I feel that society has caused some of that and pastors have created some of their own problems. I think that one of the greatest needs of leaders today is to know how to deal with conflict. It is everywhere. It is in the home, schools, churches, work places and I believe that it centers around being critical. There are too many of us who are critical about so many things and it is robbing the Christian of their joy.