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| Posted By: rob Posted On: Dec 10, 2004 Views: 1478 | tk&science.. hey there keith, what do you think about PJ's articles on ppsociety.com? what's your opinion on his conclusions? |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Dec 11, 2004 Views: 1473 | RE: tk&science.. Hi Rob, what article? |
| Posted By: rob Posted On: Dec 11, 2004 Views: 1469 | RE: RE: RE: tk&science.. "Aharonov-Bohm Effect" effect one and the last article that's part 2 of it titled "Photons... Are These TK's "Moving Parts"?" |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Dec 11, 2004 Views: 1461 | RE: tk&science.. Okay, I read through the article. I have to admit I found it very difficult to read it all the way through. The reason being that I was constantly stopping to jot down notes whenever I came across an error, but was forced to give up when I realised it was not going to be worth the effort, there were way too many errors. The article is representative of a good many others all on a similar theme, that of trying to establish a scientific principle for a paranormal phenomenon. The author demonstrates what I can ony describe as a vague grasp of known scientific principles, such as quantum theory and the electromagnetic spectrum, and takes parts of each, mixes them up, and applies them wrongly and makes false assumptions. He even, for example, mixes up the properties of a photon with EMR frequencies, which is a bit like saying that the speed a racing car as it crosses the finish line is due to the colour of the driver's socks. Add to this taking some of his ideas from a book about Shamans, and we have a hotch-pot of of incorrect science, myths, and wild and false assumptions, all put together in such a way as to make the phenomenon seem plausible. It isn't plausible, not even worth thinking about, its seriously daft. I can't list every mistake made, this posting would run to 5000 words of explanation. All I can say is that the article is a piece of nonsense. This is not just my personal opinion, I hope you understand that, it is a matter of scientific fact. The ariticle is riddled with serious errors. If I thought the article had any merit I would say so. It doesn't. |
| Posted By: Paranoid Jester Posted On: Dec 12, 2004 Views: 1447 | RE: tk&science.. Well now wait a minute... I'm the author of these articles that you apparently don't like. Now understand this, I am ONLY out for science and reasoning, not the mystical, supernatural end of these "paranormal" phenomenon. I am fully convinced that we are in fact looking at a scientific reality when it comes to psi... and it is not because I'm a believer in tribal gods or what have you. If I have seriously messed up any scientific facts or the like than I would like to know more about it. I don't want to give anyone false information regarding scientific principles. Could you please give me a FULL elaboration on EVERYTHING you read that I got wrong? Seriously, I need to know because my intention is not to get people to swallow anything was misinterpreted scientifically. Thank you much PJ |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Dec 13, 2004 Views: 1409 | RE: tk&science.. Hi Paranoid Jester, I was expecting to hear from you. Welcome to my site. I am sure that you would appreciate it if I went to the trouble of correcting all your scientific errors. Your assumptions however - of which there are many and which are central to your argument - would have to remain your assumptions. Unfortunately, as the topic is one I am finding increasingly boring, I cannot work up the enthusiasm to undertake such a time consuming, pointless and tedious exercise. Apart from that I can't spare the time! Instead I refer you to my page on Quantum Mechanics, that should help clear up a point or two. I am sure you can understand my unwillingness in trying to correct your errors. They are, after all, your essays and I feel that you should undertake the research yourself and do your own corrections. It's the way I do things here, for all my topics, and I recommend it to you. Doing it yourself is the only way of getting accurate and reliable information. But you already know this. Best regards, Keith |
| Posted By: Paranoid Jester Posted On: Dec 13, 2004 Views: 1403 | RE: tk&science.. Oh well yes, understandably. All of my articles on the website are my theories as to what we can learn from the reports of people who have reported psi phenomenon and what correlations these things have to quantum mechanical phenomenon. In other words for example, the reason why people who have reported some form of telekinetic phenomenon over long distances sounds alot like the Aharanov-Bohm effect. But see my area right now is concentrating on the effect discovered by John Hutchison and Mel Winfield - also called the Hutchison effect. This bizzare EM corruption of the nucleus of atoms causes levitations and even fires from long distances - which looks exactly like what poltergeist phenomenon and TK in general have been all along. Nothing supernatural has ever needed to be involved if this is all PK was, is and will be. That's why I think people have most certainly in fact demonstrated TK. The Hutchison effect only needs 75 watts of power, as per what Dr Mel Winfield told me over e-mail and he also stated that a human being could be the power source (humans produce 100 watts of power) of where poltergeist phenomenon has been coming from - hence TK. But I would at least like to have SOME indication of what was scientifically inacurate. Maybe just at least one example? This is very important to me. Thank you again for your time! PJ |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Dec 13, 2004 Views: 1386 | RE: tk&science.. Hi PJ, I just knew you would come back and ask for an example of your errors. Just to prove that I have actually found any! Okay, but I am only prepared to give one example. I honestly cant be bothered to waste any more time on it. This is a very complicated subject and requires detailed explanations. Did you read my page on it? If you did you should have seen this one for yourself. In particular I recommend you read the sections EPR Experiment and the Double Slit Experiment. This is what you said in your article ............................."We're all familiar with the idea that one need not be close to the object being moved when TK is taking place, but has anyone wondered how that's possible? I mean, really... any skeptic will denounce TK by saying, "One of the reasons TK is impossible is because energy traveling from point A to point B is going to lose power over that journey, let alone over miles and miles of distance. One can easily mention to an advocate of TK that TK would not be possible since it somehow defies the laws of physics when no limits of distance between what's being moved and the telekinetic himself/herself demonstrates no power loss at the same time, but TK'ers have no problem with that nonetheless. There is a very unique phenomenon in quantum mechanics, that is not a theory but something scientifically observable, that demonstrates particles experience a quantum phase shift in the presence of magnetic fields. What is happening, and I think I'm interpreting this correctly, is that charged particles will actually enter into a sub-space dimension where power loss is non-existent and distance irrelevant when electromagnetic fields are right where they need to be for the effect to happen.".................. This is where you are getting it wrong. You are talking about the Aharonov-Bohm effect in your essay. Lets look at what the Aharonov-Bohm effect has to say about the double slit experiment. Aharonov-Bohm effect This phase difference can be observed by placing a solenoid between the slits of a double-slit experiment (or equivalent). A solenoid encloses a magnetic field, but does not produce any magnetic field outside of its cylinder, and thus the charged particle (e.g. an electron) passing outside experiences no classical effect. However, there is a (curl-free) vector potential outside the solenoid with an enclosed flux, and so the relative phase of particles passing through one slit or the other is altered by whether the solenoid current is turned on. This corresponds to an observable shift of the interference fringes on the observation plane. Okay. All this is saying is that the electron going through the double slit experiment is effected by whether or not the solenoid is charged or not, even though in a classical (non-quantum) sense it is not possible for the electron to know if it is charged or not. This is not an unusual type of event at the quantum level, the double slit experiment itself proves that even without the addition of the solenoid. I have yet to hear of any scientist claim that this procedure causes the particle to actually enter into a sub-space dimension where power loss is non-existent and distance irrelevant when electromagnetic fields are right where they need to be for the effect to happen. I think that is just you getting it wrong. You are trying to find a way of taking a quantum effect and applying it to the classical world. In other words you are trying to do what the most brilliant scientists in the world are trying to achieve, the unification of Quantum Mechanics and Relativity. Even if this is one day achieved, it will do nothing to explain action at a distance, or non-locality, because it only applies to the quantum world and has never been observed, and never will be, in the classical macro-world. Trying to move an object by TK is trying to move it in the classical world, Also the EPR experiment does not demonstrate ENERGY travelling from point A to point B, either instantaneously or not. What travels is information. This information carries no energy, and can be put to no use, let alone move anything. For further information visit the following site. One of the theories put forward is that nothing at all passes between the separted particles, it is simply the sum of the knowledge within the system that causes the collapse of the wave function. http://mist.npl.washington.edu/npl/int_rep/tiqm/TI_toc.html IN SUMMARY You have tried to use quantum mechanics to explain how TK can move objects at a distance. QM moves nothing at a distance. Only information is exchanged between the particles, and that is only regarding states such as polarisation and spin. If you measure one particle the other one instantaneously adopts the opposite polarisation or spin. No energy is transferred, nothing moves other than how it was already moving. Bringing in the Aharonov-Bohm effect serves no purpose here whatsoever. No action at a distance is produced by the Aharonov-Bohm effect. To be honest I wish I hadnt bothered with any of this, its just not worth the effort and this is just ONE point. No doubt you will try and pick holes in it anyway. Save your energy. I have given an example of one of your errors, I have no intention of being drawn into a fruitless discussion on the theories behind TK . If TK was a science and not a belief, that would be different, there would at least be a point to doing it. Keith |
| Posted By: Paranoid Jester Posted On: Dec 14, 2004 Views: 1306 | RE: tk&science.. Sir... WHAT'S WITH THE ATTITUDE ?? I had every intention of coming here to have a FRIENDLY conversation about quantum mechanics and the like. You have a book on science and are selling it, you have a website opened for comments and questions, you have an entire section on your forums where the category is "TELEKINESIS" ... AND THIS IS HOW YOU BEHAVE?? All of my theories are subject to change, however my belief in psi phenomenon isn't. I make no apology for that. As far as I'm concerned, Dr Mel Winfield told me the truth in his e-mail... The Hutchison effect (nucleonic energy) is the responsible force behind TK and poltergeist phenomenon and a human could be the manifester. I think you are a very irate, irritated individual.. I apologize if I sound rude. If you think all of psi phenomenon is false than take down this forum's section for "TELEKINESIS" if you don't want to talk about anything in any matter other than like this ! Thank you and have a nice day PJ |
| Posted By: The Last Random Hero Posted On: Dec 14, 2004 Views: 1292 | RE: tk&science.. Keith, let me finalise this one for you. http://www.randi.org/research/ Congratulations Jester, don't spend it all in one place. |
| Posted By: Paranoid Jester Posted On: Dec 14, 2004 Views: 1286 | RE: tk&science.. Excuse me... I already explained that I don't believe psi phenomenon is anything paranormal, supernatural, or an occult power. You guys can say what you want about me... I'm on your turf, after all. |