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| Posted By: FireStarter Posted On: Sep 13, 2005 Views: 885 | Placebo I'm just as interested in the whole tk thing.I like talking about it so much that i just can't keep it out of my mind.I want to be the one to prove the point to everybody just as you said Placebo.Ever since this flame war's been going on i have became more interested in it.But the question here is who will be the hero to do it all? Yen; |
| Posted By: ArcticWolf Posted On: Sep 13, 2005 Views: 881 | RE: Placebo It Is Like A Visious Circle... To Prove That Telekinesis Exists, You Need To Try It Yourself. And To Try It Yourself, You Need To Believe You Can Do It. But Those People Who Do Not Think That Telekinesis Exists, We Are Drowned By The Fact That It Physically Cannot Exist, And Therefore Do Not Try It. But, By Definition... We Cant Know What We Dont Know, And Therefore For Us To Know, It Needs To Be Proven. Which Means Someone Has To Believe They Can Do It. Before Anyone Posts An Arguement, I Am Neither A Believer Nor A Non Believer. I Cant Deny That Telekinesis Does Not Exist, But I Cant Deny That Does. |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Sep 13, 2005 Views: 878 | RE: Placebo What Is It With You And Capital Letters? |
| Posted By: Placebo Posted On: Sep 14, 2005 Views: 870 | RE: Placebo Hahaha, yes those capital letters are pretty disturbing. Is it entirely necessary ? :) And yes, it'd be nice for someone to step up to the plate. Someone who can do more than make a delicate, uncovered piece of paper move on a needle :/ And especially someone who isn't just trying to fake it. What worries me is that there are people who have applied to eg. Randi's challenge, who claim to be able to levitate and spin objects the size of CDs, inside closed containers, from a distance. And when tested... they fail. The person I have in mind sounded to be sane, and civil. So, what the hell causes him to take the challenge? Can a seemingly sane person really be that delusional? Delusional enough to take on a public challenge for such a huge claim? Anyway, I'm rambling. Sorry about that.. |
| Posted By: Grant Posted On: Sep 14, 2005 Views: 863 | RE: Placebo I think it's more like who is the super hero to do it all. I know that everyone is allowed to express there point of view and beliefs, but really do you all strongly believe that someone oneday is going to be able to %100 proof TK exist. I can't see it happening and i do respect your views but i think what your hoping for is never going to happen. There are a lot of people in this world and i'm sure that if TK existed then one person could come out and prove it without it being questioned. |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Sep 14, 2005 Views: 857 | RE: Placebo Placebo, Just because someone sounds sane and civil does not mean they can't be nuts. Horrifically cruel serial killers can come across as both charming and highly intelligent, and why not? There is no connection between charm, intelligence and sanity. So the reasonable, smart, well balanced and sane (or so it seems) person decides they can fly and leaps of a tall building, or puts themselves up for a scientific TK test that they fail. It's no good asking why they do it, the answer would not make sense to the rest of us, even if they are able to come up with an answer. My point is that it in no way implies, no matter how indirectly, that there is a credibility to the existence of TK just because someone (sane or otherwise) applies to be tested. |
| Posted By: Placebo Posted On: Sep 15, 2005 Views: 850 | RE: Placebo > Grant, I really do believe in TK, mainly because I have done it myself - to a relatively small degree. That makes me a believer in it due to subjective experiences, which of course are no good to scientists. My experiences were far from rolling a pencil across a table. Until I can find a more scientifically verifiable demonstration of it in myself, it would be a waste of everyone's time for me approach anyone about it. This is why I have an uncertain hope in one day being able to demonstrate it in a more useful manner. As to why nobody has achieved this to date, I don't know and it does worry me. Obviously the skeptical answer to this is 'Because it doesn't exist'. Perhaps. It still leaves me confused as to some of my own experiences. > Keith, Fair enough. I didn't mean to imply that it could lend credibility to the argument. Psychopathic and delusional can be two very different things though :) It's quite depressing to see time after time, some nutter or faker being exposed. Perhaps I'm a nutter after all - A nutters opinion on his own sanity has little meaning after all :P |
| Posted By: Grant Posted On: Sep 15, 2005 Views: 840 | RE: Placebo Placebo If you believe that TK exixts through your own experiences that is fair enough i will not argue with that, i have read previous posts of yours and as far as i can make out you have an open mind on this subject despite your beliefs. The fact you are woried that it hasn't been proven to this date surprises me, maybe you are uncertain of TK yourself but then how would you explain your experiences. I have not attempted TK and don't plan to, nothing to me suggests it exists and i don't like wasting my time. Yet i'm left wondering as to why people believe in TK is it their past experience or just their own personal beliefs either way it still hasn't been proven. Oneday it might be proven and it will be people like me who will be branded naive for not having any faith in TK. Maybe you will be that person Placebo to prove it and i hope you do, it would be a special gift but everything i know tells me it does not exist. Just curious what have your experiences been with TK? and what are you aiming to achieve as to a more verifiable demonstration? |
| Posted By: Placebo Posted On: Sep 16, 2005 Views: 826 | RE: Placebo >> If you believe that TK exixts through your own experiences that is fair enough i will not argue with that, i have read previous posts of yours and as far as i can make out you have an open mind on this subject despite your beliefs. > The fact you are woried that it hasn't been proven to this date surprises me, maybe you are uncertain of TK yourself but then how would you explain your experiences. > I have not attempted TK and don't plan to, nothing to me suggests it exists and i don't like wasting my time. > Yet i'm left wondering as to why people believe in TK is it their past experience or just their own personal beliefs either way it still hasn't been proven. |
| Posted By: Placebo Posted On: Sep 16, 2005 Views: 825 | RE: Placebo Odd.. that's not what I typed :) Let's try it again, a little differently QUOTE: If you believe that TK exixts through your own experiences that is fair enough i will not argue with that, i have read previous posts of yours and as far as i can make out you have an open mind on this subject despite your beliefs. ---- Thank you :) QUOTE: The fact you are woried that it hasn't been proven to this date surprises me, maybe you are uncertain of TK yourself but then how would you explain your experiences. ---- It worries me, because I believe it exists - and thus it makes no sense that nobody has been able to demonstrate it. I see no reason for it, and essentially I wonder if (1)There is some hidden cause for this or (2) I'm horribly wrong QUOTE: I have not attempted TK and don't plan to, nothing to me suggests it exists and i don't like wasting my time. --- Fair enough. I can't argue with that ;) You can't waste your time investigating every claim that arises, especially if it involves a lot of it. QUOTE: Yet i'm left wondering as to why people believe in TK is it their past experience or just their own personal beliefs either way it still hasn't been proven. --- I've seen a few groups of people that believe in TK, sometimes they are a hybrid. Here's my attempt to categorise them: 1) Immature people that just want to believe, because they want to believe (And so on). And they'll put their fingers in their ears and shout it loudly against the opposition. They aren't willing to actually open their eyes to look at it fairly. In fact, they dread doing this. Naturally they bring a bad name to anything they believe in. 2) People with a very warped perception of the world. Delusional or otherwise. They see ghosts and fairies whereever they look. They see a pretty motion glow from a LED on a photo and they believe they experienced a supernatural entity. 3) People who have been helped to believe what they do. This happens in martial arts quite a lot, where 'chi' has a purpose of helping a practitioner to focus and control his kinetic force. They learn that it works, and assume that the ancient belief of it must then be true. 4) People who experience something amazing, and have no explanation for it. Nothing we understand of the world seems to be able to explain it. You get a few types of these, but a potential problem is that the human senses can be fooled. Of course, it may have been genuine as well. Subjective. 5) People who investigated it in a very practical way and were astounded to find that it worked, at least in a small way. They cannot find an explanation that satisfies what they experienced, and are left digging for answers. They hope that the answers will one day be found. I'm #5, with the hope that I can demonstrate something one day sufficiently to make a difference. As to what I want to demonstrate, I'm not fussy really. But it needs to be something concrete. Skeptics are pretty tough on these things, of course, so it need to be pretty conclusive. Eg. Rolling a pencil across a glass surface, surrounded in a container, from a distance. That should do the trick, in a controlled environment open to investigation. I haven't been practicing much lately, however at my peak a number of months back I was able to move a balanced straw with a predefined time and direction with good statistical result. I could at times make a piece of foil lying on a desk spin, but not consistently and not convincingly. This was the last thing I was working on. Now, I realise that nothing that I've put on video, or demonstrated, is convincing enough to believe in it. But when you're the one feeling and doing it... and then seeing things that air and static just don't quite explain... you get my drift. As such, I don't insist that others have to believe in it :) Perhaps I'm wasting my time, but there's far too many questions I have unanswered. I basically treat it as a hobby for the moment. |
| Posted By: Grant Posted On: Sep 20, 2005 Views: 800 | RE: Placebo Placebo, you have summed up TKers by pointing out 5 main facts which i totally agree with. Points 1 & 2 i find are the most annoying, the people that miss all the little detail in a TK video clip and claim its real but then points out all the little detail in a moon landing video and claim its a fake. Point 4 alway's a problem, they can't explain it so they assume its something mystical like TK but then they will argue it out with non TKers even though they are not sure themselves. And the problem for you and all other people that are in the same catogary as point 5 is the first four points. As a non-believer i have to question all 5 because i don't believe but for the people with the unanswered questions like yourself i hope you find them. Oneday maybe i'll be proven wrong. |
| Posted By: Placebo Posted On: Sep 21, 2005 Views: 789 | RE: Placebo Thanks, I hope so too :) Keeping skeptical on an issue I believe in is quite tricky, but I try. Cognitive dissonance :P Out of interest - I've made an loose arrangement to be tested by an open-minded but skeptical man, who has the resources and know-how to construct some elaborate tests. But first I have to have something that is worth testing, so it's very preliminary at the moment. I'm looking at some time next year. |