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| Posted By: Roy Posted On: May 11, 2006 Views: 1387 | Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain Mr. Mayes, I'm curious as to whether or not you are aware of, or if you've read, Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain by Sheila Ostrander and Lynn Shroeder. It has a mass of data collected from Soviet researchers during the Cold War era about parapsychology in general. Psychokinesis is one of the many topics they touch on. I ask because you stress evidence of any PK phenomenon performed by dedicated and apt researchers. I feel that this book may interest you if that is what you seek. Should you develop an active interest in reading this book (if you have not done so already), I recommend buying a used copy of it through half.com. You will find a good deal. |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: May 12, 2006 Views: 1352 | RE: Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain Roy, Many thanks for the info. I do not wish to appear either rude or disinterested, but events that are claimed to have happened 30 years ago would not meet todays rigourous testing standards that have been developed over the years. In any case it still comes back to the fact that not one person alive in the world today is able to perform TK under test conditions. It is interesting to note that many thousands claim to be able to do it at home. Hmmm. I know a few snooker players that will swear blind they scored a perfect 147 in practice when alone. Normally they are lucky to get three down in row! Same thing. |
| Posted By: Roy Posted On: May 12, 2006 Views: 1349 | RE: Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain Keith, thank you for your response. Coming from a background in psychology, and having successfully passed several courses regarding research methods, I am compelled to ask if your distrust for older research methods carries through to all other branches of science. If so, this is a slippery slope. If applied universally, it would indicate all research done 30 years ago is invalid and not worth scrutiny, which I feel, and I'm sure you would agree, is not true. I'm also curious as to your opinion of other psychic feats, such as telepathy, or even other topics in parapsychology, such as haunting activity. I do understand and appreciate your skepticism. I try to remain skeptical myself, doubting first and foremost and then actively (or passively) searching for evidence to support paranormal claims. Of course there are many ways to reproduce psychokinetic effects, stage magicians have done this for many years using everything from fishing wire to magnets. In this same rite, there are many hoaxed pictures of UFOs, aliens, ghosts, and etc. I feel that even if there are a million faked photos or videos, there only has to be one that is authentic to negate the multitude of hoaxes. It is with this spirit that myself, and many others, pursue parapsychology, be it a mere hobby or an unhealthy obsession. I look forward to your response. |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: May 12, 2006 Views: 1345 | RE: Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain Roy, I can fully appreciate why you and many others have an avid interest in all things paranormal, it is interesting and, at least initially, exciting. I have also gone down this road - bright eyed and bushy tailed - and found that all so called 'evidence', when looked at with a critical eye, fall far short of the criteria required for calling it evidence. I take your point about tests from yesteryear. As with all things, something may reach the required standard today but will not reach it 10 years hence. However, when dealing with all things scientific this does not matter. The fact that the speed of light, the weight of an atom, the strength of gravity etc, have all been revised does not change the fact that they exist today as they did then. With TK it is a different matter. It is not recognised as existing today, or in the past, by any respectable scientist in the world. In order for any discerning person, scientist or not, to believe in TK then someone needs to walk into a lab and demonstrate it. I am absolutely certain this will never happen and because I have this view does not mean I have either a closed mind or have not researched the subject in some considerable depth, as some believers assume to be the case in their ignorance. It's amazing how many of them accuse me of having a closed mind, when it is really quite obvious from their remarks who has the closed mind. It surprises that that so many people are prepared to accept anything if enough people tell them its true. I just hope none of them ever get asked to be a jury member because otherwise God help the poor accused! |
| Posted By: Roy Posted On: Jun 12, 2006 Views: 1247 | RE: Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain Ok, fair enough I suppose. I'm curious to know how you feel about small scale psychokinesis. To be more specific, I'm referring to experiments performed by J.B. Rhine with dice rolling machines and experiments performed by PEAR Labs with random number generators. I'm sure that, given your skepticism toward years-old parapsychology research, you may not concern yourself with Rhine. But PEAR Labs research is much more current and, last time I checked, a certain series of experiments were found to produce significant proof of an observer's control over a RNG's output. This significance was determined by a metanalysis across all individual experiments. At the moment, I cannot find a link to the analysis, but I will do so if you ask for it. I'm generally curious about your opinion of other parapsychology topics and other supposed psychic talents. |
| Posted By: Nightshade Posted On: Jun 14, 2006 Views: 1232 | RE: Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain I have also gone down this road - bright eyed and bushy tailed - and found that all so called 'evidence', when looked at with a critical eye, fall far short of the criteria required for calling it evidence. not to be the bearer of bad news, but i honestly think that the evidence will never reach the criteria you-and many other's are asking for. reason being is it attacks beliefs, no one wants to be wrong, whether it is a college acclaimed scientist, or a 4 year old girl, no one wants to be wrong. the only way that the evidence will reach the criteria is with a neutral party. that will be hard to find, since you either believe in psychokinesis or you don't. so i don't think we should be searching for evidence that reaches the criteria, instead evidence that is extraodinary (sp?). there has been a lot of exraordinary (sp?) evidence in history, but you have your own opinions and granted your own standards. i respect this, but ponder this: if telekinesis isn't real, where did it originate from? was it a mere hallucination? improbable since this wouldn't result in worldwide believers and practicioners. was it a myth like dragons? maybe. but if it was a myth, it would have been busted by now, but many people still claim to perform it. is it a fact that only few accept? maybe, there are skeptics and psions after all. the answer and choice is yours and yours alone. but remember that everyone has their own beliefs, but not all of them are true, or reach your-and others criteria. |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Jun 14, 2006 Views: 1230 | RE: Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain You say....."the only way that the evidence will reach the criteria is with a neutral party".... Sorry, but this is just so wrong. Evidence is what it says it is, evidence. Evidence cannot be denied, it does not require belief, faith or trust. Evidence simply is. A fact is a fact, proof is proof, evidence is evidence. If a thing requires faith or belief then it has no evidence at all. Just making a point. |
| Posted By: Nightshade Posted On: Jun 15, 2006 Views: 1226 | RE: Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain i see your point, but allow me to clarify. when i was saying evidence i meant the "evidence" you were talking about. i just didn't put the word evidence inside quotations marks, that might make it appear that i am speaking against myself...if that made sense at all. i figured that it would be easier to say evidence (although used in a grammatically incorrect way) instead of "results from the research and experiments that has been administered." |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Jun 15, 2006 Views: 1223 | RE: Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain I repeat myself for the millionth time. When I see TK demonstrated I will believe it. Until then I will continue to say and believe that it is total rubbish. |
| Posted By: Nightshade Posted On: Jun 20, 2006 Views: 1207 | RE: Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain and i respect that. but once i am no longer to perform it under my test conditions, that's when i will say it is all rubbish. until (if) that day comes, i will continue to say that it is real, and totally possible. |