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| Posted By: otherhawk Posted On: Nov 10, 2004 Views: 1253 | minor point Just about accents - Phineas said that immigrants always lose their original heavy accents but that's not actually true. My Grandfather moved to Scotland during the second world war and till the day he died never lost his island dialect Norweigan accent which was so strong that not only did most Scottish people have trouble understanding him but most Norweigans did as well. I do appreciate that the Nazis in Hellsing may have tried to hide their accents but they also may not have. There are apparently many places in South America where no-one is going to question you if you have money. (Well, not just S. America, but that's the matter at hand.) I'd also like to confirm what Pip said about the number of Catholics in Scotland. In my part, out in the country my parents were warned against moving to a certain village because it was all Catholic and no-one would speak to them. There's never been large scale sectarian acts of terror, but there's still a significant problem. |
| Posted By: Pip Posted On: Nov 10, 2004 Views: 1206 | examples My manga is out on loan at the moment so I can't check up so could someone give examples of the Interga slang which was the original point of the poll? |
| Posted By: Kiro Posted On: Nov 10, 2004 Views: 1188 | .......... Why do people really mind the slang and junk in the manga? It's not like a huge deal....i think its cool because its diffrent, but to each his/her own. short i know but hey i got nothing else really to say.......See yea... |
| Posted By: Angel_Fish Posted On: Nov 10, 2004 Views: 1151 | *still laughing* Why yes, Phineas, I did do an online search, simply because I was not going to spent thirty minutes transcribing the words of my b/f's Swedish stepfather. The origins of a surname do not mean it cannot appear in other countries. (Do you really believe the Normans and Saxons didn't influence each other's culture at all?) In all truth, you've spent quite a bit of time coming up with these arguments, haven't you? I applaud your *ahem* dedication to a cause, but don't you think your time could be better applied to something more...constructive? Perhaps writing a paper on the subject and attempting to get it published would occupy you sufficiently. As for your 'kids' comment, Zahmira isn't the only one on here over 20, and I agree with her fan classification. It is wholly possible to enjoy something, be it literature, music or anime/manga without becoming completely obsessed by it. Perfectionism is a wonderful thing in properly used doses. You're absolutely right in that Erin is extremely reasonable and highly respectful of everyone's opinion. She's one of the individuals I would enjoy discussing a number of topics with. I have no doubt you're feeling very self-satisfied, Phineas. You're someone I would love to meet in chat rooms. :D I'm sure we'd have fun rending each other asunder. |
| Posted By: Pip Posted On: Nov 10, 2004 Views: 1168 | correction That should have been "Spend just one day in Glasgow". Bloody uni computers.... |
| Posted By: Pip Posted On: Nov 10, 2004 Views: 1172 | A word or 10 from a Scot Phineas, just to go back to your earlier point that "Scotland is probably around a 99.8% protestant country under the British Empire, the same place this "Catholic zealot assassin" is supposed to have spawned from, and you have quite a bit of inconsistency in character makeup. That's not even accounting for how personal Anderson seemed to take Hellsing's going into Northern Ireland in volume 1; which is a very Catholic, and very religiously volatile nation." You are in fact 99.8% wrong. Scotland is a very religiously volatile nation, just as Northern Ireland, except not as publicly. Spend a just one in Glasgow and you'll feel the dangerous tension here. Catholics and Protestants are at each others throats here ALL THE TIME. The sectarian violence and hatred is disgusting. Regarding Anderson's reaction to the situation in Northern Ireland, that goes back to before the Republic of Ireland was formed and the isle as a whole was under Westminster rule. To cut a long story short, when Irish independence was fought for, it was for the whole of Ireland and giving up the north was seen by many as treachery. It was this mentality, which lead to the assassination of Michael Collins (the famous Irish Republican and IRA member who negotiated the treaty with England). Such feeling was not unique to the Irish, however, as there is a lot of blood between the Scots and the Irish. Now onto more general stuff I know Anderson Highland accent was a pure dub invention (when I first read manga scanlations I always imagined him to be Italian in my head) but the DH manga is designed to tie-in with the NA dub. As they are translating into English, they have the majority of their audience will not have seen the original anime (also they always assume anime first, manga afterwards which is completely backwards). My only objection to the use of the accent in an English anime tie-in manga, is that it's too broad for those who don't know the accent. Regarding the issue of "Sir" and "Dame", the titles are equivocal, but they are actually different honours. A dame is not a knight, but it is the equivalent rank of a knight. Integra, however, is a knight and so (despite there being no precedent) "Sir" is in fact the correct title. |
| Posted By: Zydeco Posted On: Nov 9, 2004 Views: 1174 | Lalalalala mostly directed at Phin My word! Youre asking me if Im from New Orleans?! Not only do you know what Zydeco means but along with that, you know where the term originated from? Well, that just blasts you out of the water, of all the people I have ever known (outside my family of course) no one, and I mean NO ONE, has ever known that. Hmmm obviously I completely underestimated your renaissance-like knowledge. Other then that, you have apparently boxed me in. Checkmate I suppose. Congratulations, since I see that my debating skills are certainly in need of some improvement huh? Oh well, for my age I definitely out shine the competition, but thats still not good enough for me. (argh Im 15 alright bet you couldnt have guessed that? Not -_-;;) Lets see, lets see, lets see, well on account of your passion with the matter, perhaps I will bend to this overall opinion of yours, since at the moment Im so utterly one sided, which believe me is rather distressing even to myself. But please remember this is bending far from breaking, and even though I will peer into your side of the tale, I do like to keep my OWN opinion. Thank you. And if you be so kind as to point me in the right direction to find these divine scanlations of yours. I have already found looking for them without a guide exceedingly difficult, almost excruciatingly. Oh and just to point out, your debating skills seem to have some room for improvement as well, especially in issues you find completely idiotic. If you find them that far below your overall intelligence why do you find the need to answer them? And in such a Yeah? Well youre stupid way of going about the whole issue. For example I made a plain statement about how I feel, and yes after reading it back over it did seem a bit dumb, but your big elaborate defense was concluded by making this completely absurd statement: For all I care, you can go have little bastard babies with Dark Horse's editor, and spawn future Bush voters with doubly ignorant bloodlines! Only, from now on, try to keep your unfounded personal opinions out of a factual argument First off I fail to find anything that makes any utter sense directed back to the paragraph you quoted on. Nonetheless right afterward you stated we should keep all personal opinions out of the argument . Well excuse me, but how was the sentence place before NOT a personal opinion nor was it any fact. Perhaps this is much like that saying, the Mule calling the donkey an ass. (no Im not calling anyone an ass its just how the saying goes) On that note, Phin, you surprise me, immensely . but in just the same way you disappoint me. Hmm so lets even the playing field. Ill check out what I can from the few scraps of scanlations I find and you stop blowing up with issues that make have no direct connection to the thing your responding to. K? Erin, we havent spoken but you seem pretty reasonable. I will be hanging on this thread in later issues Im sure. Soooo Toodles, Zydeco (dont hurt me for not having any other debating materials Im kind of spent, plus with the way Phin is going I doubt he/she would ever change his mind he/she seems pretty immobile) |
| Posted By: Erin Posted On: Nov 9, 2004 Views: 1176 | Sigh All right, can we not have any further comments about politics in this poll? I have no problem with the topic (or with mocking Bush, for that matter), but obviously there are enough points to follow already on the discussion of Dark Horse's translation, and we really don't need a political argument on top of that. Anyone who feels the need to mention that further is welcome to take his/her views to the erin_fans LJ community ^_^ And for the record, nobody ever said Integra's slang was incomprehensible, just unrealistic. Phineas, you too have stated things that are completely wrong as facts: "...a percentage of these self-proclaimed Hellsing fans are just kids (ie - Zahmira)"; "...you obviously know nothing about an editor's job..." Use of words like "obviously" is going beyond even just 'concrete terms'. In essence, chill. Your logic regarding Dark Horse is all correct, but your posts would be half the length if they were just the logic with none of the ticked-off-ness ^_^ |
| Posted By: Zahmira Posted On: Nov 9, 2004 Views: 1189 | Phineas Well, since you managed to not insult me in your last post, I'm actually going to put some time into this. "Ahhh, my dear Zahmira... We clash once again." Let's not think of this as clashing. I'm up for a healthy, insult-free debate, if you are. "The strength of your opinion isn't what's childish, but rather, the way you present the arguments for your opinions. And just out of curiosity, if it's not too personal, how old are you?" Alright, fair enough. I am 22 years old. I am also a 4th year Computer Science major. If there is one thing most people know about C.S. majors, it's that we don't tend to be English majors as well. I can't write an essay. I have trouble putting my arguments into coherent English sentences. So, my arguments tend to lack a certain sophistication. I am going to try my best here. "Since you obviously know nothing about an editor's job, let me break it down for you, okay?" I am aware of how things get translated and then edited. That wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point was that DH isn't going to spend the time and money to print a new edition of Hellsing right now. I am going to assume that the percentage of people who refuse to buy the DH manga, due to poor quality, is small. So DH wouldn't actually make a whole lot more money if they did completely redo the whole Hellsing manga. You don't fix something that isn't broken. And as far as DH is concerned, manga sales are not broken, yet. Maybe a few years from now when the second editions come out, there will be a few changes. But don't expect miracles. "If you're a TRUE fan, no it's not. As I've said numerous times before, supporting something that goes against Kouta Hirano, is being anti-Hellsing." I think that "true fan" isn't the best term here. It suggests that there are only two types of "fans": true and false. But, I'll come back to this in a moment. You say that the DH manga goes against Hirano. Has he ever said that he disliked the English version? I know that it was said that he never wrote Anderson as Scottish, but was he actually against the idea? It's not going against him if he doesn't oppose the idea. (I honestly don't know his view on this, I was hoping you, or someone, could fill me in here). If disagreeing with Hirano on issues of Hellsing makes you anti-Hellsing, then logically a true Hellsing fan will hate the anime. It's my understanding that Hirano didn't like how the anime turned out. (I may be wrong on this as well. I have not heard it directly from him). Can one really be a fan of something if they hate it? Or better: can one really be a fan of it if they hate certain parts of it? Yes, I do think that the manga was better than the anime, but I still enjoyed the anime. Which means that I enjoyed something that Hirano did not. Now, back to the term "true fan". I think there are many types of fans out there. More than two. Some are casual fans, some are really into it, some want it to be perfect in every possible way, and some probably fit into many other categories. I think it's evident that we are two different types of fans. I am willing to accept the DH translation, with all its flaws, because I know that I can access better material elsewhere. I can read the scanlations, I can go buy the YK tankubon. I am satisfied with that. Just because I don't feel a strong urge to "send not bomb marked packages with C4 & nails inside it" to DH, doesn't mean that I like Hellsing any less. I would be happy if they made some changes in second editons of Hellsing, but you can't make everyone happy. Which brings me to my last point. You said: "To me, it sounds like that's just another convenient cop-out on your part, in refusal to try and do something to stop it. It's something I'll NEVER just lay down like a coward and "accept"." I think we can all agree that the DH Hellsing manga could use some improvement, small or large. But we don't agree on what needs changing and what should remain the same. Even if DH decided to completly re-edit the manga because of reader complaints, what do they change? Get rid of the accents? Or improve them? Lose the British slang? Hellsing does take place in England, so some slang is expected. So remove the slang for certain characters? Let's say that I also write to DH and tell them what I think is wrong with their manga. But we have different opinions on what needs to be changed. If they change the manga to satisfy my complaint, you might be even more disappointed in it. In the end, DH could make the manga even worse. Is the reason I have yet to write to them a cop-out? Not in my opinion. Cop-out: A failure to fulfill a commitment or responsibility or to face a difficulty squarely. (dictionary.com) Maybe if it was my work being horribly mutilated I would take some action. My voice might actually carry some weight that way as well. But I don't feel any responsibility as a fan to complain to DH. But, of course, this is just my opinion. If you think that I am a horrible excuse for a fan for thinking this, so be it. That's fine by me. We just have different ideas about what a fan is, and what their responsibilities are, as such. |
| Posted By: Robin Posted On: Nov 9, 2004 Views: 1193 | Leave it in. I don't notice anything wierd about her language, since I pretty much speak it myself, being british. As British slang goes, it's pretty easy to understand. At least she doesen't have a Yorkshire accent. |
| Posted By: Phineas Posted On: Nov 9, 2004 Views: 1173 | Grammatical Impossibility... Again Sigh... Ellie, We've already cited in different forms, in 'realistic' terms, why a woman being dubbed as "sir" isn't a "grammatical impossibility". On top of that, Integra's in a very atypical situation. She's the sole, female heir to an English military org./knighthood, seated in what's historically been an 'all male' position of power. Something which would 'normally' never happen, but in Hellsing, did. Therefor, in light of that, her being called "Sir" becomes much less farfetched. She's an exception, and that's the whole point of the character. She's the embodiment of her male ancestors, in a feminine form. Our small disagreement on that subject aside, you're one of the few posters on here who can actually see the light through the darkness that Horse has inflicted upon the Hellsing manga's dialogue. Hence, that fact far outweighs the former in my eyes ;). |
| Posted By: Phineas Posted On: Nov 9, 2004 Views: 1156 | Re: A Plethora Of Re:'s... Prepare Yourselves. Well, if anything, I'm pleased to see my posts are at the very least, drawing more discussion on the matter :). That's a good start, I suppose. Given all the posts that were, in some form or another, all directed back at me, I'll go ahead and answer each one individually. Up for a time consuming read? *glances & readies to unleash the fury* (Glad you appropriately braced, btw) Hrmmmm... where to start, where to start. "Eeeney... Meeney... Miney... Moe..." How abouuuuuuut... ... ... .. .. . Ryu. "I don't think you should discredit Dark Horse that much... I mean, it's not like the manga is a horrible dub(like yugioh turned out to be...)." Really? Why shouldn't I? Does inferiority/blatant stupidity not deserve discrediting & belittling? Would anything in life ever be done correctly, if wrongs were never pointed out? Do you even you know the meaning of inferiority? Wait, I guess not... you voted for, or at least supported Bush, didn't you? Sorry. Secondly, I didn't really know you could "dub" text. I always thought that was reserved for, you know, 'audio' tracks - as in a film, or cartoon. I mean, I've heard of 'translating' written text & all, just never 'dubbing' it. But yes, the translation (which it isn't really, since it's artistically modified to such a lengthy extent by the editor) surpasses all levels of horribleness. Yu-Gi-Oh I can't personally comment on, since that puerile genre isn't my cup of tea, and thus haven't read or watched it - unless by mistake when flipping through channels. "Maybe I should pick up a translation from Young King Ours..." The Young King Ours versions are the direct import tankubons, and therefor untranslated. "is there really that much of a difference?" Yes. One is in Japanese kanji/hiragana/katakana/furigana, the other is in bad English. But the difference between the "poor" Dark Horse translations, and the "quality" group scanlations are quite noticeable. "Oh. I support Bush more than I supported Kerry. Now don't flame me for it..." You should know by now if you post something like that on here, and I read it, you're going to get flamed for it. All you've achieved by posting that, is reinforcement of my preconceptions about your mental capacity. The thing I'd like to know is do you yourself REALLY support Bush, or are you simply a child mirroring the mindless rhetoric you've heard your Bush-supporter parents spouting around the house? If it's you yourself in support of Bush, would you then care to explain, with 'detail', exactly why you support him? If so, in turn, I'd be more than willing to share my own reasoning behind supporting & voting for Kerry in a very Southern, very "red" state - one in which I knew I had no shot at making a difference in. "Thought I'd bring my own opinion out into the open." That's cool with me. Now you need to back it up. "Erin didn't make any rude comments about him though." Erin has her own style, I have mine. I like making fun of disabled world leaders, what can I say? Particularly when it's one of my own country. Even more than that, though, I like engaging - or rather, attempting to engage - their typical followers in 'logical' arguments. Plus, I'm a frequent "Real Time with Bill Maher" & "Daily Show" watcher, which may have a tiny little influence on my humor. "I guess she's one of the few who can respect other peoples opinions..." I do respect your, and other people's opinions as "your opinions" on their face level. However, what I don't respect, what I loathe eternally, are the inherent irrationalities behind those "opinions". One thing I will NEVER respect is outright stupidity (Bush), or ignorance of fact & reason (his followers) for the purposes of personal religious beliefs, or any other selfish motives. So, if you're old enough to vote, and indeed voted for Bush this time around, can you surmise what category that puts you in? I'll say to his credit, that at least this time around, as far as we the general public know, GB actually won the popular vote. He didn't get put in his position by a bunch of old, right wing, Supreme Court judges as he did in 2000. Then again, brother Jeb still controls all of Florida; and as a result, Gorilla Boy was going to win Florida whether he got the votes or not. The bright side of that quagmire, is that Jeb will be gone forever in 2008. With that said, I'll no longer speak at great lengths on the political topic of Kerry & the douche bag until someone brings it up again. I can't promise not to throw in the occasional Bush joke here and there, though. Since she mentioned Bush/Kerry, to keep from prolonging the political chatter, I'll go ahead and respond to Erin. "You have Stampede thoroughly bested in terms of logic, but your insults (maybe s/he hasn't heard any of this logic before, after all; this doesn't make him/her stupid) make people reluctant to agree with you. If he refuses to listen after a patient explanation, then and only then may you accuse him/her of being an idiot." I value your kind words, Erin, thank you. What you're proclaiming in defense of Stampede, however, makes little to no sense. Stupidity doesn't JUST exist in one arguers reluctance to listen to another's words, but also ignorance of the actuality behind the words they themselves speak as truth. He spoke about things in CONCRETE terms. He said "YES, this is ONLY that way", or "NO, it's absolutely not", when he was absolutely wrong. In short, he was telling & supporting absolute untruths just so he could project personal intellectual flawlessness, and doing so is stupidity. I hate to mention it (well, no I don't), but what president does that sound like to you ^_^? To close the deal, Stampede then went back and tried to reaffirm those "concrete" statements a second time, in spite of your having laid out the factual definition of the word "sir" for him, along with a brief explanation of why it was not "grammatically impossible". So, he actually DID refuse to listen, even after reading your very valid "explanation". I also don't recall labeling him directly as "stupid" in prior posts. I did say he was unwise to speak about something when he had a lack of foundation/general knowledge to support it. I wouldn't consider that insulting, though. If anything, it's helpful advice for future reference. And while I admittedly called his stab at sarcasm lame (monkey-ish), which is minimally insulting, it's far from accusing someone of being an idiot. Though because I was doing so in defense of your own comments, you taking a poke at me in return is definitely insulting. "And it doesn't even have anything to do with Bush and Kerry. o_O" You're very right about that, Erin. I simply can't seem to resist making fun of someone like Bush, though. And I also thought you of anyone on here, would appreciate those kinds of drolleries. Apparently I was very wrong. My fault. Zydeco, not from New Orleans by any chance? I'm pleased to see I'm not the only one here who posts in book length. Anyway, moving steadily along... "Sure, Nazis that spend 50 years hiding out in some **** hole on the other side of the world probably would loose their accents after a while." First of all, who said they stayed in just one place? Thus far, all we know from the manga through Maxwell is that they originally fled to South America, and Alucard/Pip/Ceres went down there looking for signs of Millennium (coming back unsuccessful I might add)... nothing more. After that, where exactly they remained (if anywhere) is still one big enigma. "Then again, there is a chance they wouldn't." Of course there is. Similar to how there is a 1,000,000,000,000 to 1 chance I could win the lottery in my lifetime. But then my common sense kicks in and enforces reality, subsequently telling me not to waste money on something so improbable. "Just because you interact with people, which isn't something vampires do anyway (unless feeding), doesn't mean they'd WANT to loose their accents. Sometimes when someone loves their country so much they try their best to keep some of their country alive in their voice even when they don't speak German anymore, which I also doubt because all of the Nazis on the Major's team spoke German and probably in their "leisure" time spoke in that said language and not in English. Thus they wouldnt be speaking English enough to loose their accents." Have you known many immigrants, Zydeco? I ask, because every single one I've known in my lifetime, who've moved to an English (or another language other than their own) speaking country, eventually completely loses their original 'heavy' accent. Whether it be from the UK/Australia/NZ to here and vice versa, German, Russian, you name it. The results are the same for a very simple reason. The reason is that there isn't a single animate thing on this planet, that isn't adaptive to its surroundings. Humans, animals, plants, all adapt to survive efficiently. Now-a-days, with humans, (like immigrants) it's more for the purpose of "blending in" with their surroundings than that of survival, because no one likes be viewed as an outsider where they live. But, the concept is still very similar. With Millennium, both concepts can apply. Firstly, if they loved their country so much, why didn't they merely leave it temporarily, and then come back after the smoke had cleared? From what I know via the manga, there's no doubt in my mind that Millennium/the Major would want to blend in more than most anyone on the planet. They'd want to stay that way, simply due to the fact that they're trying to live incognito for however many years it would take them to build up an adequate army of 'undead' soldiers, and there's no way they knew at the time how long that process would take. While I'm sure they would probably 'dislike' losing their ancestral German accents, to ensure their livelihood, and for the greater good of 'the plan', it'd assuredly be worth the sacrifice to the Major. Do you think the Major welcomes death? If that was the case, he wouldn't have chosen the path of immortality. He wanted to live on, and create as much havoc as he could. Doing that, meant being shrewd in every aspect, including speech. You say vampires don't interact with people, but Hirano obviously has a difference of opinion. What about Tubalcain? Remember volume 3? That legion of 'human' Brazilian Policia/officials they had under their thumb in Rio alone? To form a huge, chaotic plan of world destruction, do you not have to acquire numerous allies throughout the same world you're trying to create war in? I could give spoilers from volume six, but out of respect for the readers I won't. Let's just say they don't ONLY strike at London. Meaning, they had associates - both human & non-human - all over the world. Having that number of international intermediaries requires quite a generous amount of personal interaction, accompanied by proficient articulation in numerous languages. Another one of the biggest factors to me, is that the textual accents (aside from being unrealistic), take so much away from the original dialogue of the character. Which, as a result, takes away from that chararcter's persona as Hirano wrote it. People who aren't as 'adept' as you at deciphering the pile of muddled textual-accents are going be sitting there in silent aggravation, straining just to work out what **** they're saying, instead of focusing on the full richness of the text like they should be. It downgrades everything Hirano had initially intended. I can personally read/speak Japanese, and the way the Major speaks in its original format, is highly affluent. If a Japanese author wants to hint at a German accent in a character's dialogue, it can be done. Hirano never did this once. When the Major talks, its always in a very intelligent, articulate manner. After all, speaking to someone like Integra on equal terms means knowing English colloquialisms, which takes speaking understandably, without a heavy accent. Ever heard of the Battle of the Bulge? Operation Greif? Well if you have, you know the story of Waffen-SS commander Otto Skorzeny, and what he did with his special unit of German troops in that operation. If not, I'll tell you anyway. Greif was Hitler's brainchild, and really his last resort. It's primary objective was sabotage, and Otto's troops were trained to speak perfect English in order to infiltrate Allied lines. They wore American & British uniforms taken from dead soldiers, and were VERY successful in causing confusion within American/British squads. The problem was, given how quickly Germany was losing the war, Skorzeny had little time to comprise this special unit. Therefor, as a result, the number of soldiers involved was very small, and eventually all were captured or killed. Consider that, then imagine how well it would've gone if it had 50 years to grow? How does this relate to Hellsing? In several different ways. 1.) Hirano is obviously very schooled in world history, and namely, World War 2. He references a lot of specific/unknown WWII-oriented, Nazi-oriented things in his manga, 2.) He likes the Die Hard movie series, and is a big Bruce Willis fan... taking a look at the beginning of volume 5 in Alucard's dream sequence, will surely tell you that. He talks of "Nakatomi towers"; "Willis" is Alucard's gun, "the Jackal"'s spirit (yes, another Bruce Willis movie); there's also a spaceship drawn in the background, and in the same area, he mentions Steve Buscemi (an obvious Armegeddon reference - yet another BW flick). In Die Hard with a Vengeance, Peter "Krieg" and the other German soldiers he used to perform a huge heist, basically mirrored what Skorzeny did with his troops in Greif. No doubt Hirano's seen it. Given the initial effectiveness of this operation in real life (and Die Hard :P), not to mention it was of Hitler's own design, why wouldn't Hirano have the Major mirror it in the same exact way? Not only learn from its successes, but improve on it. We already know that the Major is an undead mirror of Hitler, that's as plain as day. He himself admits in the manga, that he's continuing on with the Fuhrer's work. Hirano has also already shown his predilection to using sabotage techniques in the manga. For example, the British officers aboard the aircraft carrier, and the officials in Penwood's meeting. Looking at all of those factors, how could one conclude that Millennium's own English speech 'without an accent' would be any different? It goes back to logical reasoning. They may have spoken German in their own leisure time. In the manga, however, they aren't shown doing so. Why wouldn't they speak in German in their leisure time? There could be a number of factors. If the Major wants them to be adept in an variety of languages, he may forbid them to talk in German so they can get it down to perfection. In addition, he may want them to be prepared for the taking over of London, and other 'English speaking' countries (like, if they have to communicate with affiliates/enemies in those countries). Maybe the troops aren't all of Germanic origin? Maybe he prefers the English language to German? It could be any number of reasons. Regardless, the way Hirano originally wrote the speech of Millennium in his manga, is without an accented influence. "Anderson's is another matter. First off, being an unhealthily obsessed fan girl to Anderson, I LOVE his accent. In fact, if Dark Horse somehow stopped in printing his accent in such a manor, even if this accent isn't supposed to exist, I would be very VERY disappointed. Sure sometimes it can be difficult to read, but after getting so used to it from the first day I picked up a copy, I just don't realize that I'm reading it anymore." See, now this sort of thing makes me scowl. You started out with the foundation for a good, intelligent argument, and then totally ****ed it away for personal "fangirl" opinion. What "you love" as a "fangirl" of Anderson & Scots is completely irrelevant to this issue. What is relevant, is sticking to Hirano's animus. The DH editor does NOT stick to Hirano's own vocal design for Millennium/Anderson/Integra, nor does he even scratch the surface of it. Here's a quick, semi off-topic question for you. Have you ever read a book, and then seen said book put to film, and gone "what the **** was that ****?". How it didn't at all seem to play out anything like the book did when you read it, and a lot of the GREAT parts of the book you personally recalled in your mind, were all cropped out by a lone director, and a lot of useless (not in the book at all) things took their place for what that director deemed as "artistic merit" & "personal interpretation". It ****es you off, doesn't it? You sit there and say to yourself, "****, I could've made the movie better than that". But to that one director, that's how they 'incorrectly' saw it, and because of their mistaken interpretation, the whole movie had to suffer. We see precisely the same thing here in the DH manga, and in the Hellsing dub. The significance of that component in this argument, is you don't alter the original state of something for what you, the editor or director, 'personally deem' artistically appealing. You give it to the fans in its TRUE, raw format (the way Hirano first wrote it), and then let the mind of the READER/VIEWER interpret it anyway they want to. If you like him as Scottish, so be it - YOU can imagine him that way. But WE, the other readers of the same manga, who through intelligent deductive reasoning don't see him like you and the DH editor do, shouldn't be forced to suffer through gaggles of nearly unreadable text because of one editor's opinionative **** up. I DO realize that I'm "trying" to read it. Every time I struggle through the facade of each original word smeared & changed with neanderthal brogue/german accents, it ****es me off that I can't just casually enjoy the original wording in NORMAL English. "Yes, once again it may seem unrealistic for him to have one, and even though he never really was supposed to have one, but then again you have ghouls walking around with vampires. I mean even though these creatures are part of the manga, can't a Priest have an accent. Face the music, when you make a manga or anime that uses other unrealistic media then can't you be a little liberal with how the voices sound or are written?" You're still diverting the whole point of the topic. The issue at hand is NOT the genre of the manga. Whether or not the subject matter within the Hellsing manga is realistic, means nothing. What matters is not altering the true 'words' and intentions as the author drew/wrote it. So why can't a priest have an accent? A priest can, Anderson can't, because he was never intended to by Hirano. When you change the whole origin of a character in a story by adding an accent, it's far from "a little liberal". It changes the entire perception of that character in the eyes of its readers/viewers. So, once again, how you yourself want him (or they) to sound is irrelevant. How Hirano wrote it, and wanted them to speak, means a lot. "Last but not least, I have failed to notice anything wrong with Integras dialogue. I didnt even realize there was slang in her speech. All the Dark Horse copies I have picked up there is never a Miss Integra it has always been a Sir Integra. Even so, why are you exactly complaining about this? So what if these somehow got switched. First off the slang used probably isnt ghetto talk, I find its usually carried out in a nice and simple way. Its not glaring in the least." Why am I complaining? I think (or hope) you already know the answer to that question by now. And if you've failed to notice something so strikingly obvious as the problems in Integra's dialogue, then me pointing them out to you on here won't do much good. I suggest for your sake, you go back and read the manga again, this time paying closer attention to detail - which, I know can be a tedious task with Dark Horse's versions. However, if "slang" isn't more or less ghetto talk, what is it? Care to enlighten us to your own definition of "slang"? In return, I'll be happy to tell you its true definition. "No, I will not go and read some ****ty scanlation on the computer to see the flaws in my opinion because Id much rather own the books and read Andersons neat accent or hear Integra speak in slang. Im officially tamed to Dark Horse and while some people may DESPISE Dark Horse, others are in love with it." LOL! This has to be the funniest thing I've read in your whole diatribe. You "will not go and read" it, because it's ****ty? Ahahahahaha. How do you know it's so ****ty, if you refuse to read it? That's not only a non sequitur, it's a self-contradiction. Plus, as a Japanese reader, I can honestly tell you the Hellsing scanlations from all the various groups that did it, are definitely NOT ****ty. The 'visual quality' of some are indeed questionable, that's true. The scanlations Random Manga Translations did weren't that great in their visual quality, but Random Person made up for that by getting translation absolutely right on. Both the visual/translational quality of the versions Crunchy Cheese first did, and BoH just recently put out, are flawless. In fact, they're all much more "true-to-Hirano" in text, than any of Dark Horse's 'artistically created' versions. If you actually prefer an editor's 'made up' wording to those of Hirano, it means you're no fan of Hellsing, but a fan of the editor - because Hirano IS Hellsing. Therefor, I'm glad you'd "much rather" go support an editor "neatly" misconstruing an authors words with your own money. Please, feel free! As it only shows your blinding arrogance through personal preference about the matter, all the clearer. I'm also overjoyed that you've found "love", and it's in Dark Horse. Hell, be "tamed" to retardation till your heart's content! For all I care, you can go have little bastard babies with Dark Horse's editor, and spawn future Bush voters with doubly ignorant bloodlines! Only, from now on, try to keep your unfounded personal opinions out of a factual argument. In the wise words of Bill Hicks, "K?!... K". So in conclusion, in the end, an artist's original intentions are all that matter. Thus, if you dislike that factual aspect of life, and you'd take Dark Horse's malicious translations over the real ones, then you aren't a fan of Hirano's true work to begin with. Ahhh, my dear Zahmira... We clash once again. "This whole thing is making me feel very sad. Yes, I do consider myself a Hellsing fan. No, I am not a child. Just because I don't have as strong an opinion as some does not make me a child" The strength of your opinion isn't what's childish, but rather, the way you present the arguments for your opinions. And just out of curiosity, if it's not too personal, how old are you? "If you do feel as strongly as Phineas about the Hellsing manga, write to Dark Horse. However, they will not retranslate the manga, it's just not worth the time and money to do so right now." Since you obviously know nothing about an editor's job, let me break it down for you, okay? Dark Horse has a Japanese translator, and Dark Horse has an editor(s). One entity is completely separate from the other. The translator receives and reviews the kanji/hiragana/katakana text of the manga in its raw form, and then puts that into its appropriate English equivalent. Once finished, he then passes it (in English) down to the editor(s), who's job is to then clean up any inconsistencies in the text, and place each text segment into its corresponding bubble. Due to the nature of the Japanese language, as an editor of it, you would sometimes have to use common sense to figure out some 'basic', and usually obvious missing words/misconceptions in the directly translated text. However, a truly skilled Japanese translator would have already done this prior to handing the editor(s) his finished product. Correctly figuring out a missing word here and there, is an editor's job. Fully altering the format of the original Japanese sentence by removing words that were originally there, then replacing them with ones that are completely made up, along with adding impossible to read accents all in the name of 'personal artistic touches', is NOT an editor's job. However, they wouldn't have to "retranslate" anything to do it right. The Japanese translator's pure English translation of the original text, untainted with the gay brogue/german accents that the editor(s) created, will always be there for DH to use. All they would have to do is stop pulling a bunch of make-believe **** outta' their asses, and stick to the original dialogue given to them. This time, putting it in FATHOMABLE English for a change - no counterfeit accents added. "If you like other online translations better, then read those! If you don't like those either, read it in the original Japanese. There are many options available. Don't buy the manga from Dark Horse if you really think it's that bad." For once, I agree with you 100%. Which why I 1.) Do buy the untranslated YK tankubons, 2.) Don't buy any of Dark Horse's pathetic versions (nor any of their other publications for that matter), and 3.) Gladly download & read the much more accurate, and WELL DONE "online translations"/scanlations. "It is possible to be a Hellsing fan not be upset with the poor translation. Translations get screwed up all the time, in every anime and manga. It's something that I've gotten used to. It's something that I've accepted." If you're a TRUE fan, no it's not. As I've said numerous times before, supporting something that goes against Kouta Hirano, is being anti-Hellsing. Yes, translations do get screwed up all the time, but that hardly makes it acceptable; and it's definitely no justification for the bull**** Dark Horse is doing to a beautiful manga like Hellsing. To me, it sounds like that's just another convenient cop-out on your part, in refusal to try and do something to stop it. It's something I'll NEVER just lay down like a coward and "accept". Out of my utmost love and respect for the masterpiece of a series that is Hellsing, I can't do that. Withal, I have to be able to call myself a TRUE dedicated Hirano/Hellsing fan in honest dignity, don't I? "A little bit of research goes a long way. Definition: Patronymic surname meaning "son of Andrew." Andrew (man, manly) was the first of Jesus' disciples, and was a revered name in medieval times due to its church connections. St. Andrew is the patron saint of both Scotland and Russia. Many Danes, Norwegians and Swedes who emigrated to America with the last name Andersson or Anderssen, dropped the extra -S after their arrival. Surname Origin: Danish, Norwegian, English, Swedish" A "little bit" doesn't even begin to summarize. All you did was search About.com, which, if you didn't know already, is not a very trustworthy source. And obviously you failed to grasp that the "Anderson" surnames they were focusing on there, were the ones of Germanic origins... not Scottish. There are different versions of the surname "Anderson", you know? The Anderson surnames they speak of on about.com, are obviously ones derived from "sen" type names. And "sen" names (ie -"Hansen", "Gustovsen"), are well known to be from that Germanic region of the world. The Scottish Anderson name, however, isn't derived from a "sen" name, but a gaelic one. More specifically, a derivative of the gaelic surname 'Gilleaindreas'. I took it upon myself to do my own research on the "Scottish" Anderson surname just for you, Angel. What I came up with was quite interesting. I found info on not only the Scottish version of the surname 'Anderson', but some info on one 'Alexander Anderson' as well. It appears there's a well known Scottish mathematician named Alexander Anderson, who's name and origin were no doubt the inspiration for Pioneer making Anderson's character sound Scottish in the anime. I would post the info here, but this post is already far too ****ing long. I'll give you a link to the site instead... http://www.britam.org/genealogy/anderson.html . Read in joy. "Besides, if Dark Horse doesn't do the translations and publish them here, what company is going to?" Do I really need to run down the list of American licensing companies? ANYONE of them would be able to easily best the pitiful job Dark Whores has done up to this point, that much I can guarantee. "I don't particularly enjoy the idea of sitting at a computer for five+ hours hunting the Net for scanlations when I could just spend fourteen dollars and be able to read the manga whenever I want in the comfort of my own(o/ b/f's) home." What? "Hunting"?!! You're joking, right? You CAN'T be that blind. Do you not see the content of the site this poll is connected to? Do you not realize the they directly host the volume 5, and volume 6 Hellsing scanlations? Furthermore, the rest of the scanlated Hellsing volumes aren't what I'd consider 'difficult' to locate, either. There's not only a torrent seeded for volumes 1-5 that's up on a ton of tracker sites (ie - www.suprnova.org), but can be found on thousands of Direct Connect channels, and are still being served by people in Random Manga's mIRC channel. The scans are readily available in multiple locations if you want them, so that's not the issue. What's your excuse now? "Although the accents can be -incredibly- hard to read for those of us who can only read/write/speak one language (barring Shakespearean *g*), it adds a bit of flavor. Even gives those of us who are woefully lacking in vocal talent something to mimic when we're trying to be clever! *waits for the oncoming hammer* " By now, you should be well aware of my position on the above statements. If not, then read up, as there's not much reason for me to elaborate on it anymore than I already have. And with that, I bid you all a goodnight. If you've read this all the way through, I hope your eyes aren't watering/itching too heavily atm - if they are, I offer my sincerest apologies :D. Phin |
| Posted By: Ellie Posted On: Nov 8, 2004 Views: 1138 | Slang and accents Slang does not suit Integra's character, full stop. Oh, and Sir Integra is indeed a grammatical impossibility. When people get knighted, men become 'Sir' (SIR Cliff Richard) and ladies become 'Dame' (Dame Judi Dench). I can barely read Alex's accent. It scares me X-x |
| Posted By: Angel_Fish Posted On: Nov 8, 2004 Views: 1159 | And because I forgot on the last one... Besides, if Dark Horse doesn't do the translations and publish them here, what company is going to? I don't particularly enjoy the idea of sitting at a computer for five+ hours hunting the Net for scanlations when I could just spend fourteen dollars and be able to read the manga whenever I want in the comfort of my own(o/ b/f's) home. Although the accents can be -incredibly- hard to read for those of us who can only read/write/speak one language (barring Shakespearean *g*), it adds a bit of flavor. Even gives those of us who are woefully lacking in vocal talent something to mimic when we're trying to be clever! *waits for the oncoming hammer* |
| Posted By: Angel_Fish Posted On: Nov 8, 2004 Views: 1148 | Ummmm A little bit of research goes a long way. Definition: Patronymic surname meaning "son of Andrew." Andrew (man, manly) was the first of Jesus' disciples, and was a revered name in medieval times due to its church connections. St. Andrew is the patron saint of both Scotland and Russia. Many Danes, Norwegians and Swedes who emigrated to America with the last name Andersson or Anderssen, dropped the extra -S after their arrival. Surname Origin: Danish, Norwegian, English, Swedish Yeah, it is childish to argue over the anime/manga all the time, but in all truth, what else are rabid fans for? |
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