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Posted By: Pagan

Posted On: Mar 16, 2005
Views: 1241
Wiping dragonmaster's ass.

The Greeks made a distinction between theurgy and thaumaturgy. Theurgy literally means “God working” and refers to spiritual work that leads one into illumination or gnosis. Thaumaturgy means, “wonder working” and refers to the conjuration of spirits, casting of spells, blessing, cursing, curing and harming through practical magick. The balance between these two aspects of the craft has been an issue since the emergence of Wicca in the 1950’s. Does spell casting overshadow religion? This debate has been heating up in online groups and blogs recently due to a story on beliefnet.com by Carl McColman entitled Is Wicca Under a Spell, which deals with both sides of the issue. Many people in the Pagan community that I have spoken with feel that magick and sorcery do the religious aspects of Wicca no good and should be downplayed. Some I have spoken to have no interest in spell-casting at all, or perhaps don’t even believe in practical magick, and thus see this aspect of the craft as an obstacle to Wicca taking its place as a major Western religion. I would like to take this opportunity to present the opposing argument.

What often gets overlooked is that Wicca and Witchcraft are not the same thing. The terms are often used interchangeably but Witchcraft is a craft that can be, but isn’t necessarily, part of a religion. Wicca is most definitely a religion. While not ALL Wiccan traditions stem by lineage from Gerald Gardner, by and large they use a constellation of terms and beliefs that were first brought together by him and those that came after, thus we can say that we can trace Wicca more or less back to him. Witchcraft is a larger area than this. Isaac Bonewits once provided a breakdown of the types of Witches in America, which can help put this into perspective:

10% Neo-Pagan – Revivalist traditions, including Wicca.

70% Neo-Classical – Those who practice folk magick with mixed Christian and Pagan roots without regard to Witchcraft as a religion.

1-2% Classical village healers who practice completely non-religious folk magick.

1-2% Neo-Gothic – Practitioners of Satanism which is based on the Gothic Witchcraft of the Witch Hysteria Era.

1-2% Family Trads.

1-2% Immigrant Traditions: Pow-wow etc.

10% Practitioners of Vodou, Santeria, etc.

I have an enormous respect for Wicca but I am a Witch, not a Wiccan. I object when the terms are used interchangeably and when Wicca attempts to speak for all Witchcraft. I got involved with the craft during the mid 80’s in North Jersey, just outside of Manhattan. Paul Huson’s Mastering Witchcraft, Herman Slater’s Magickal Formularies, and the little spell books from Original Publications had much more of an influence on my Witchcraft than Scott Cunningham or Ray Buckland. This is not to say that I am not religious: I am. But I learned to use practical magick at an early age and was successful at it. I have traveled all over the world to learn traditional magickal techniques: from New Orleans, to Europe, to Nepal. Today I do magick professionally and consider traditional techniques of spell-working to be just as important as religious and spiritual traditions.

I would argue spell-casting is just as sacred as Wicca and Neo-Paganism and far more ancient and widespread a tradition.

Most wiccans can not trace their history back very far, thats because it's all been taken. Gerald Gardner just took what little was available and mixed it all together.


Posted By: GirlUWant

Posted On: Mar 16, 2005
Views: 1239
RE: Wiping dragonmaster's ass.

I'm not sure, were you trying to tell us that Dragonmaster is full of it? I got bored reading your novel!


Posted By: Pagan

Posted On: Mar 16, 2005
Views: 1237
RE: Wiping dragonmaster's ass.

I had an e-mail from him saying he was in over his head.


Posted By: adam

Posted On: Mar 16, 2005
Views: 1235
RE: Wiping dragonmaster's ass.

LOL


Posted By: adam

Posted On: Mar 16, 2005
Views: 1230
RE: Wiping dragonmaster's ass.

so another pagan loser...

ok i jsut gotta remember what girluwant said, breathe, breathe


Posted By: Dragonmaster

Posted On: Mar 16, 2005
Views: 1228
RE: Wiping dragonmaster's ass.

WTF? Ok, so your saying you can be a witch, wiccan, pagan, whatever and worship satan? Your wrong.

Ok, massive copy pasting here from one of my books.

Satan is a part of the Christian and Muslim religions. Since pagans are neither Christian nor Muslim, Satan is not part of our deity structure at all.

We believe that each and every human being is completely responsible for his or her own actions. To us, evil is a choice, albeit a bad one, that a human might make, not an embodied entity to blame our actions upon.

If an individual chooses to do evil, most pagans believe they will be punished via the laws of karma or as a result of "cause and effect.". In other words, "What goes around usually comes around."

Many Witches and Wiccans believe in some form of reincarnation, that the results or karma of past deeds can follow a person from one life to the next. This may also help to explain why terrible things sometimes happen to wonderful people or why some people seem to have been born with certain skills and knowledge. It may also explain why some people seem to lead a 'charmed" life.


Some pagans believe in an after-life spent in another plain of existence. Known as Summerland, Avalon, Valhalla or simply the "Other Side', they believe that they will be reunited here once again with friends and family.

Q: So why do you use that "Satanic" symbol?

The pentagram, or five pointed star, is not Satanic. Pythagoras used it as a symbol of health and his followers wore them in order to recognize one another. In Medieval times, some Christian knights used the pentagram as their symbol. To modern Wiccans the pentagram means many things; The five points correspond to the elements Air, Earth, Fire and Water with the top point corresponding to "Spirit". The pentagram in a circle may also represent a human with their legs and arms outstretched, surrounded by universal wisdom or the "Goddess" - humankind at one with the environment. Many Witches and other pagan practitioners do not wear the pentacle at all, but have other symbols of special meaning to them.

Satanists turn the symbol upside-down, which puts the elements of Fire and Earth at the top (Fire symbolizes willpower and passion and Earth, prosperity and earthly goods) and Spirit, spirituality, at the bottom. Satanists also turn the cross upside-down. This, in itself, does not make the cross or pentagram a Satanic symbol. In some Wiccan traditions, the reversed pentagram is a symbol of "second degree" status - one who has been elevated from "initiate". To members of these traditions, the reversed pentagram is considered highly positive and has no connection to Satanism. A symbol is simply an image or mark in itself. It is the mind and the beliefs of the beholder which attribute to it a particular meaning.

Q: Do you do blood sacrifice?

Goddess NO! The nature of sacrifice is to give up something of one's own in order to gain something more important. Wiccans believe in the sanctity of all life. Most pagans believe that animals are part of the same natural cycle of life as humans are. Witches have long been associated with animal companions known as "familiars". Most seem to be cats, do any witches cats seem abused to you?

Q: Do Witches and Wiccans cast spells?

Yes. Well, some do anyway. However, the term "spell" is widely misunderstood.

Spells, are somewhat like prayers and are used to create needed change in one's own life or the life of a loved one. But while prayers are a petition to an external Deity to create the change, most Witches and Wiccans believe that Deity is present in everything, including ourselves. Spells, then, are the channeling of our own divine selves, our own energies, to create the change.

Spells such as those which use love magic to gain the attention of a specific individual, or curses, are considered "manipulative". Most Wiccans believe that anything manipulative-that goes against the free will of another-is considered wrong. Many other pagan paths have similar codes of conduct based upon the tenets of their tradition or belief and almost all believe that the responsibility for their actions will lie with them.

Q: Are Witchcraft or Wicca cults?

A cult by definition is a group of people who blindly follow one leader. As Witches, Wiccans and pagans tend to be free-thinkers, there is no one person that we consider to be THE leader. Thus we cannot be called a cult.

#######
Q: Why do all Witches/Wiccans wear black?


We all don't. Many Witches/Wiccans actually seem to favor green and/or purple. Black, however, is in many cultures a symbol of clergy. Priests, Ministers and Rabbis all favor black as the main color of their ritual garb.

Scientifically speaking, color is energy. The colors you see are the ones which are reflected and not the ones absorbed. Therefore, what appears to be white, which is the culmination of all colors in the light spectrum, is actually reflecting all colors and absorbing none. What appears to be black, is absorbing all colors and reflecting none. This is evident in the fact that when one is wearing white, one feels cooler - as the fabric is sending the heat energy outward, and when one wears black - the heat energy is absorbed in the cloth that one is wearing, making one feel warmer. Many Witches feel that wearing black attracts and holds more natural energy.
#######

Q: Aren't all Witches Women?

No. Neither are Wiccans or those in other pagan paths. Witches can be either men or women. The term "Warlock" is never used to describe a male Witch as it is considered to be a religious slur. "Warlock" is an old Scottish word meaning "traitor" or "oath-breaker". Men and Women alike can be Witches, Wiccans or pagans.

Q: How do you convert new Witches/Wiccans/pagans?

We don't. We feel that the attempted conversion of others is a form of religious bigotry. i.e. If one tries to convert another to his/her religion, s/he assumes that the other person's beliefs are not as valid as his/her own. We feel that all paths are equally valid as long as they do not infringe upon the basic civil rights or free will of another. According to our beliefs, it is up to the individual to choose his or her own path. We do not try to manipulate others into our way of thinking, we only try to educate others about our religion so that they may better understand us. We do, however try to help guide those who have already expressed an interest in the pagan belief systems or religions.

Q: So what do Witches/Wiccans/pagans DO?

Pretty much what everybody does. We come from all walks of life. We raise families, go to work, throw steaks (or vegetables) on the "barbie" and hang out with our friends. We practice our religions and belief systems, celebrate our holidays with festivals and continue to study and explore our past while contemplating our futures.

Many covens and groups meet once a month to worship together under the moon. Pagans tend to hold ceremonies or "circles" out of doors as we feel that being with nature brings us closer to the divinity who creates it.

Some pagan beliefs may seem strange to those who have not heard much about them before. Pagans, on the other hand, are usually very well versed in the beliefs of other religions. They find the various religious systems interesting and often encourage their own children to learn about these other religions. Pagans believe in free will and free choice and that an educated choice is always better than blind obedience to any religion or dogma. We are not "against" other religions. We have simply made our choice to be pagan and we expect others to respect that choice as we respect theirs.

All that we ask is that we are allowed to practice our religion without prejudice or interference as is our right guaranteed here in the United States under the Constitution and as outlined within the constitutions of many other countries. The freedom to practice religion -or no religion-as you choose-whether it be Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or Pagan-is the freedom to follow your spirit and your heart. This precious freedom must be defended, protected and treasured by all or it will no longer be guaranteed for anyone.

Ok, done. Thats my two cents. Not like anybody will read it all anyway. I had written some of this for my website (no link will ever be posted here, it would ruin my rep, if people knew what I do here) and some from one of my books, (Wicca, the complete craft, ISBN 1-58091-092-0) and www.witchvox.com


Posted By: Dragonmaster

Posted On: Mar 16, 2005
Views: 1227
RE: Wiping dragonmaster's ass.

ok, that makes up for missing the other week.


Posted By: Dragonmaster

Posted On: Mar 16, 2005
Views: 1226
Wiping my own ass.

i just asked you if you had any easy info for these people, not to "wipe my ass". now look what we done did, all these people are going to passout from having to read so much.


Posted By: Pagan

Posted On: Mar 16, 2005
Views: 1224
RE: Wiping dragonmaster's ass.

Just kiss it man. I'm gone. I'll play nice and not let these people in on your other online activities. It's your bag now.


Posted By: adam

Posted On: Mar 16, 2005
Views: 1221
RE: Wiping dragonmaster's ass.

master dragon...i am still working on my own essay to post here, against you, i should have it by later morning, if my comp is ok with it


Posted By: Dragonmaster

Posted On: Mar 16, 2005
Views: 1219
To adam and others

* To you who do not know me. You do not understand my beliefs; yet you proceed to attack me.violating your own code with your intolerance...

* To you who set up campaigns to silence me, and yet protest when your rights are infringed upon...

* To you who call me evil, but don't know what I am...because you have never cared to find out...

This is what I say to you. I am not evil, I am peaceful. I will not be silenced, for I believe what I speak. I wish no harm to come to you. I wish not to fight with you. I hold no malice against you because we believe differently. I wish it were the same with you.


Posted By: crap

Posted On: Mar 16, 2005
Views: 1214
RE: Wiping dragonmaster's ass.

ATTENTION:

MANY OF US DO NOT READ THESE LONG MESSAGES. PLEASE KEEP IT SHORT ASSHOLES.

thank you. :)


Posted By: adam

Posted On: Mar 16, 2005
Views: 1213
RE: Wiping dragonmaster's ass.

"violating your own code with your intolerance"

my code? what is my code?


Posted By: guy

Posted On: Mar 16, 2005
Views: 1208
RE: Wiping dragonmaster's ass.

if you don't read it then don't reply. asshole


Posted By: The Almighty Doer of Stuff

Posted On: Mar 16, 2005
Views: 1198
RE: Wiping dragonmaster's ass.

T crap No, no, no, you're doing it all wrong. Big bold text? Where I'm from, you quote the entire long post in question, then under it type "tl, dr" which means "too long, didn't read". Like this:


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