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Posted By: BakaKage

Posted On: May 20, 2004
Views: 709
Way to cleanse the world (not racism)

We need a 100% accurate truth serum that we are allowed to use for court purposes. So you know for sure if someone is guilty, and if so you put them in jail for a long time. Then when they say they are "reformed" and want parole, use the serum again and see if they are reformed. 50-80% of the people paroled are not reformed, they just claim to be because they hate jail, then end up doing their crimes again. And if you could get a way to prove chemically if people are mentally unstable, and if it is a danger (i.e. already commited a crime) then lock them up in mental wards, and when they claim to be better test them again. Having a court system that works would improve the world.


Posted By: shadrak

Posted On: May 20, 2004
Views: 707
RE: Way to cleanse the world (not racism)

um bakakage..that would be a miracle... what we must do is have tougher penalties..that is the best you can hope for


Posted By: Aurora

Posted On: May 20, 2004
Views: 705
RE: Way to cleanse the world (not racism)

Even in the states you have something called, I believe, the 5th amendment, which states one has the right not to incriminate oneself. Even if you develop a truth serum, are you going to change the constitution to force them to take it?

Secondly, during parole hearings, if you use said serum to uncover if they are reformed or not, you will most likely have a high percentage of false negatives. Just b/c someone who sits in jail surrounded by criminals may not seem reformed at that time; it does not guarantee that person will commit another crime. A truth serum cannot tell the future, or other influences that will enter into their life.

And Shadrak, what exactly do you believe tougher sentences will do? Are you saying it would be better for them to remain in prison longer, and thus make stronger ties to the criminal world? Or are you saying that people who “could’ just receive probation should be sent to prison. This of course would eliminate almost any chance of them reforming, as anyone with a criminal record has a difficult time finding employment, but coupled with the fact of being removed from society, you would be making it harder for them to leave behind criminal tendencies.

Lastly, the purpose of imprisonment is twofold. It serves as a specific deterrent to the criminal. Hopefully after spending time in prison they will see that it’s not worth it. This is rarely the case, but ideally the hope. Imprisonment also serves as a general deterrent to society. We get the message that if we commit a crime we will be punished for it. Unfortunately punishment is rarely swift, or certain, therefore the people who are committing crimes, never actually believe that they will be caught.

Do you think that someone considers the death penalty before pulling the trigger?


Posted By: BakaKage

Posted On: May 20, 2004
Views: 698
RE: Way to cleanse the world (not racism)

most people who commit crimes like that and even remotely think of punishment, only need think of "temporary insanity" or get a lawyer to say they are mentally unfit for trial. I saw f**k the 5th. If someone commits a crime they should have to pay for it. None of this "well, we dont have enough physical evidence, so we will just let him go free even though he DID commit it. we just cant prove it. That aint right. And my comments about parole is that too many people simply say they wont do it again, even knowing they will. Thieves say "I have learned my lesson, i wont ever steal again" while currently thinking of how much they would like to jack the rolex off the parole officer. If we had a serum that would basically negate the 5th (and dont worry, the constitution has been changed hundreds of times over the years, its what most bills do and supreme court rulings often do by "clarifying" or the like) but that serum would prevent people from lying or intentionally bending the truth to get themselves around thier punishment. If people knew for a fact that if they were found as a suspect after commiting this crime that they WOULD face jail time, no ifs ands or Johnny cockrans about it, they would most likely think a little more. Crime is a gamble these days. In america there is a high chance you can get away with murder. Things like theft or assault can usually be pushed aside as "momentary lapses of judgement" but having a truth serum you could ask them if they would do it again, or if they had a chance to do that over again would they change. Many would say they would do it again the same if teling the truth, but instead lie to get off. Forget that. The 5th ammendment is a problem with this country.


Posted By: Aurora

Posted On: May 20, 2004
Views: 694
RE: Way to cleanse the world (not racism)

“In america there is a high chance you can get away with murder”

This is not quite true, the closure rate for murder is very high, approximately 90%

It is also quite difficult to be declared not legally responsible due to mental disorder. Less than 10% of people who try succeed.

And I am sorry, but I do not agree with you at all. If there is not enough evidence for someone to be convicted, then they should not be. If you begin to go after people for whom you have very little evidence, you are violating the people’s rights. In your scenario people would be assumed guilty, and must prove their innocence, I certainly would not want to live in your world.


Posted By: sem

Posted On: May 21, 2004
Views: 679
RE: Way to cleanse the world (not racism)

Just like to point out that, actually, the Constitution has been changed only 27 times since it was written. And, unless I'm very seriously mistaken, nixing the 5th Amendment isn't up for consideration as change #28. Although the W administration would probably give it the thumbs up.


Posted By: Kiki Dee

Posted On: May 21, 2004
Views: 673
RE: Way to cleanse the world (not racism)

You wouldn't have to change or nix the 5th amendment if you had your magical truth serum, though. If it truly does what it's supposed to do, the suspect who is innocent should have no problem taking it. If the suspect refuses to take the truth serum, they obviously have something to hide, and it will be harder for their lawyer to prove thier innocence. The fifth amendment would still be in affect, however, it would become obsolete. And speaking of W, wouldn't you just love it if HE took some of that truth serum?

I don't think the 5th amendment is what's wrong with our country, I think that prisons in themselves are part of what's wrong; bring back capitol punishment. What really set me straight as a kid was getting a spanking or two, not being sat in a corner to think about what I had done. Now, it's practically illegal to spank your kids, and they can do whatever the hell they want. I say that we need to bring spanking back for kids and adults (well, some adults. We might cause more crime from the people who get off on that.) Get a speeding ticket: 2 spankings in a private room with one spectator (to make sure you're not going too far.) Get 5 speeding tickets: Public flogging. Ok, maybe not. It would be entertaining, though. I'm just saying that a negative behavior needs immediate correction. You can't beat your dog for ripping up the carpet or eating the couch 4 hours after he does it. He won't know what he's being punished for, and will just think you're a mean bastard. Bottom line: What we're doing isn't working. It's time to try something new. Shock collars, maybe. ;c)

Plus, our government is overly corrupt. There are too many lies, and they're getting worse at covering them up. John Kerry is about as bad as you can get, but that's not to say that W is any better. This country is going to hell in a handbasket, and I've seriously been considering moving my citizenship to Canada. How do you like it up there, Aurora?


Posted By: Aurora

Posted On: May 21, 2004
Views: 668
RE: Way to cleanse the world (not racism)

I love Canada like Americans love the US.

If you want to get away from crime, yes Canada would be a good choice. Homicide for example has a rate of 1.66/100,000 in Canada and 6.70/100,000 in the US.
Crime is just one facet of life however. If you like untouched wilderness, lush forests, majestic mountains, and endless beaches, you will find Canada aesthetically pleasing.
Nevertheless, we have a government that is corrupt, although our scandals are a little different than yours it would seem.

I think I will leave it at that, as I do not believe it would be appreciated if I hijacked this thread to discuss all I love and hate about my country.


Posted By: BakaKage

Posted On: May 21, 2004
Views: 665
RE: Way to cleanse the world (not racism)

Umm...aurora...im not sure what reports you have been reading but there sure as hell isn't a 90% closure rate on murder. about every 2-3 weeks there is another report of a missing child (half the time they are killed and body not found for a good while) and more often than that you will hear about bodies being left in desert, or in canals. Even if they can get enough evidence to find a suspect, they never have enough to convict. The # of murderers that do not have to go to prison is pretty high. and only 10% of those who try insanity or being mentally unfit suceed? maybe 10% of everyone who does OR doesn't try it gets it. but of those who try the # is a lot higher. Dont trust any articles you read from America about crime. They fudge their numbers up a lot. "well, if we never officially started the case, then it technically never existed" and things like that are common. I should know, my siblings have worked in law enforcement, my sister also in the courts. They will do whatever they can to make themselves look better.

And whats wrong with the serum? its harmless and not permanent, so if you dont have enough evidence to convince a jury why not use it? If the person commits the crime and covered it up well, they shouldn't get away with it. Or if one investigator made a mistake, then a guilty man shouldn't have his case dismissed because of it.


Posted By: no_one

Posted On: May 21, 2004
Views: 663
RE: Way to cleanse the world (not racism)

Aurora...you rock.


Posted By: Aurora

Posted On: May 21, 2004
Views: 661
RE: Way to cleanse the world (not racism)

Baka, I am sorry, but the statistics I stated are accurate.

The “Closure Rate” is found by comparing the # of people convicted of a crime, to the # of homicides. Therefore it does not matter if the police officially open a case; that does not negate the fact a homicide occurred. I am sure you are somewhat correct with regards to the amount of anonymous bodies found, however, you must then realize how many known homicides occur.
The closure rate for murder is the highest among all violent crimes.

“I should know, my siblings have worked in law enforcement, my sister also in the courts”

Do you learn by osmosis?

Perhaps you do have relatives in law enforcement, but that does not lesson the amount of information, and studying, I have done on Uniform Crime Reports. I spend my days studying statistics of crime and policy of the government it is my chosen field.


And thank you no_one.


Posted By: YotSot

Posted On: May 21, 2004
Views: 652
RE: Way to cleanse the world (not racism)

Aurora,

There you go again. Have you gone back and read your posts? From what I've read from you over the last month, I agree with you politically and you do make sense, but really! Was it worth your hours of time, thought and energy to formulate several long responses about the finer points of truth serum? Seriously, truth serum? Wait wait wait, DONT stop posting. It might be more interesting to see how far you'll go.


Posted By: BakaKage

Posted On: May 21, 2004
Views: 638
RE: Way to cleanse the world (not racism)

Wow...again, the research you are doing is using official reports, which use every mean they can to make the numbers look as good as possible. Many cases are "undeterminable" as to whether it is a homicide, or suicide. Cases in which the body is found long after and it decomposed, they can't tell whether the person was killed or died of other causes. People found with gunshot wounds sometimes are passed off as a suicide because they dont have enough evidence to prove otherwise. And the number of people who are still at large somewhat proves that there is more than 10% of cases without convictions. Often, if one person is accused of murder, and let off, then the homicide is never solved (all too often because the person who was let off was the person who commited the crime but due to lack of evidence gets off free) As far as studies or reports go, the larger the group doing it, the less accurate. If you look at a study of the whole country, it will not add up to the sum of each of the states. And in any given state, thier "statewide" reports will not add up to the sum of the individual cities. You may not believe me but if you REALLY were doing this as a main course of study you should have realized that by now. "extreme cases" are usually not recorded in large group studies claiming them to be irrelevent or a fluke. so the numbers you will find in nationwide studies are incorrect. there is NOT a 90% conviction rate on homicides.


Posted By: Aurora

Posted On: May 21, 2004
Views: 634
RE: Way to cleanse the world (not racism)

Baka, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, which is exactly what it is. I find it hard to believe that your relatives are privy to all the information collected by every police station, every court etc.

There are approximately 18,000 homicides in the US yearly, if we say that all but 10% are closed that means that there are still 1,800 that go unsolved every year.

Secondly the UCR is not a study but a reporting system. Every police jurisdiction must report to the FBI how many homicides and murders have occurred. Please note that homicide differs from murder. Secondly the courts report how many people have been convicted of murder. From those stats we get approx a 90% closure rate.

Now, I understand what you are saying about homicides being classes as suicides, however I believe that forensics have evolved enough that these mistakes are quite minimal.

You are not the only one with law enforcement in your family, or among your acquaintances. I think our main difference is that I believe in the system, while you are pessimistic towards its goals and achievements. If you do a little research on this topic I will be pleased to discuss this further, but as I have been accused of “singlehandedly sapped all the fun out of this post board” I think I will leave it at that for now. If we are meant to have a difference of opinion, so be it.