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TOPIC: Marijuana, why are so many closed minded about it?

Posted By: Posted On: Jan 13, 2007 Views: 511	RE: RE: Marijuana, why are so many closed minded a "Well you are right about alot of things but your statement of the "facts" show your bias. Ask anyone most "stoners" will tell you their most creative moments were whilst stoned, this is not a justification simply an effect some people have. " No it doesn't. The fact is you should be able to be creative without getting stoned. If that is the only way it works for you, you should seek psychiatric help to determine what sort of issues are preventing you from functioning properly so you don't require a crutch to do things that should come naturally. "This is not objective, it is an insult." It is not an insult, it is just a normal pattern of life. It is very normal for kids to leave high school full of **** and vinegar thinking they know everything and can change the world. As they get older they realize the world doesn't change like they want and they really didn't know a damn thing when they were younger. With rare exception, we all go through it. "Nooone is saying ganja is risk free we all know it has negative effects. One joint has three times the tar/whathaveyou of a cig, well if I smoke a J a week thats 144 cigs a year, which most tobacco smokers could go through in less than a month." Yea, I know. I said that already. "An interesting side not to all of this, THC interacts with the canabanoid recepters in the brain. These reseptors have no other uses." Not true. Your body produces a form of cannabinoids naturally called endocannabinoids that react with the receptors. The receptors, both CB1 and CB2, have many natural functions. Listing them all would double the size of this post but suffice to say they do not exist just for marijuana smokers. "you're not really looking at a bigger picture here as to what this plant does for some of us. People throughout time have found different ways to find inspiration here and there, and this is what has allowed us to progress in our thoughts, our architecture, and just in general out way of life. So to say that the drug does nothing more than provide stimulation to the brain chemically would be a farse, for you also have to look at what the outcome is from this "chemical stimulation"." Again, if you need to tell yourself these things to justify your desire to get stoned then have at it but there is zero evidence that getting stoned has allowed humans to progress as a species. All getting stoned does is alter the brain's natural chemistry to cheat the pleasure centers. It does not open a portal into some great inner knowledge. A normally functioning person should be able to to all the things you claim you can only do when you are high and they should be able to do them better since their mind is not being negatively effected by outside influences. By all means, get high if you want but call it what it is. "my eyes and ears are still well open to new ways and new walks in life." If that were true, you would be able to see your philosophy is flawed. You love the idea that taking drugs opens a some hidden world that others can't see and the fact that it is just a self-induced chemical imbalance messing with your consciousness really messes with what you want to believe so you refuse to look at it. "Compared to smoking tobacco there is no comparison, tobacco is addictive and smoked in greater quantities than ganja. Even though a joint contains 3x more tar than a cigarette the majority of weed users don't smoke anywhere near as much as a tobacco smoker." Again, I already said that. BTW, the exact amount is between 50% and 70% more tar. Switch to hash and you don't have that problem. "Theres a few other minor ones but, I'm out of time if you post 'em I'll refute them :P" If you read and understood what I said, you would have known that I don't say there is any reason for marijuana to be illegal. No valid argument can be made for that unless all more harmful substances like alcohol, tobacco, and caffeine are banned. Amsterdam is an excellent example against keeping it illegal.
Posted By: impersonator Posted On: Jan 13, 2007 Views: 509	RE: Marijuana, why are so many closed minded about it? I'm finding that you're argument consists of comparing things to these "normal people" from which you're describing that a "normal person" can get these same feelings without the usage of marijuana or other such enhancements. Which then means that you're declaring everyones level of pleasure, and what they find pleasurable to be the same on all levels. And now, that means that you see everyone finding joy within the same light and the same means. I'm sorry that you view people in such a categorial way, and this is where our argument finds its definitive line. I can reach certain levels of joy in different ways through meditation without the use of marijuana at all. But it is a relationship that I have attempted to make with this plant that makes me feel closer with my surroundings in nature, and closer with who I am as a person. Now, I do admit that I might not be altogether what's considered to be "normal" psychologically. But I am becoming more and more aware of who I am and what I need in my life, and I feel that a relationship with this beautiful plant is a choice that suits me best. And now, as for your comments about not being able to change the world and that it's all everything but a reality at this age....well, it saddens me that we've lost such a brilliant person as you to assist in changing it to become a better place. I would rather die than give up and try to fit in, I will never quit in trying to change this rock floating through space to be a better place for everyone. It's when you've given up just to survive that you've truly lost yourself. When I look at people who have done this, it's almost as though there's no more brilliance in their eyes left, that spark is gone, and they are nothing more then a shell of a person floating around trying to service those that continue to make us spiral down to our own demise. I'm sorry that you've lost touch with life my friend. peace and love
Posted By: impersonator Posted On: Jan 13, 2007 Views: 507	RE: Marijuana, why are so many closed minded about it? sorry, I realize I had a few typos above there.....my bad
Posted By: dsg Posted On: Jan 13, 2007 Views: 502	RE: RE: Marijuana, why are so many closed minded a "No it doesn't. The fact is you should be able to be creative without getting stoned. If that is the only way it works for you, you should seek psychiatric help to determine what sort of issues are preventing you from functioning properly so you don't require a crutch to do things that should come naturally." I never said anything about needing it or wanting to be creative you are extrapolating. Your psychobabble is also extrapolation and shows your bias I never said I needed it. You call everything anyone has said a "justification" when really its not. To use your earlier metaphor, do you drive just to go from a to z? Or do you sometimes go for a drive because its relaxing, because you think clearer, because you like the scenery, because its fun cruising with friends. These are not justifications of driving, they are REASONS to drive; just like saying I enjoy nature walks better high is a reason to get stoned (sure its a weak one but at this point I'm not trying very hard...)not a justification. You have no right to go on degrading people under the smokescreen of being rational. Now back to your psycho babble... Are you a psychiatrist? I doubt it, no well versed psychiatrist would tell you to go get treatment for low CREATIVITY (not to mention saying someone who is less creative than your holier than thou self isn't functioning properly is a ridiculous insult not a fact). Some people are more creative, some less so, yes there are pharmaceuticals for depression, anxiety, hell even schizophrenia but, there are no pharmaceuticals made for enhancing creativity. The notion is actually ridiculous. However there is well documented use of recreational drugs by artists, writers, poets, ect. "Again, if you need to tell yourself these things to justify your desire to get stoned then have at it but there is zero evidence that getting stoned has allowed humans to progress as a species. All getting stoned does is alter the brain's natural chemistry to cheat the pleasure centers. It does not open a portal into some great inner knowledge. A normally functioning person should be able to to all the things you claim you can only do when you are high and they should be able to do them better since their mind is not being negatively effected by outside influences. By all means, get high if you want but call it what it is. " A normally functioning person (you sure like to use that term) can function as well if not better stoned (a negative influence?). There have been many well documented cases of workers in Jamaica being REQUIRED to smoke before work because it actually increases productivity. As for other "negative outside influences" Kratom has a widely documented use in Indonesia, helping workers get through their often boring workdays. "If you read and understood what I said, you would have known that I don't say there is any reason for marijuana to be illegal. No valid argument can be made for that unless all more harmful substances like alcohol, tobacco, and caffeine are banned. Amsterdam is an excellent example against keeping it illegal. " Who says I was talking specifically to you? It was an open invitation for anyone to jump into the leagalization argument. In summation, you are selectively rational and objective while showing ridiculous biases at other times then denying them. Really what the hell is your point?
Posted By: Posted On: Jan 13, 2007 Views: 500	RE: RE: Marijuana, why are so many closed minded a "I'm finding that you're argument consists of comparing things to these "normal people" from which you're describing that a "normal person" can get these same feelings without the usage of marijuana or other such enhancements. Which then means that you're declaring everyones level of pleasure, and what they find pleasurable to be the same on all levels. And now, that means that you see everyone finding joy within the same light and the same means." My points have not been just comparisons with "normal" people. Perhaps they are going over your head or perhaps it is in your interest to not see the facts. That would be your misinterpretation. The term "normal functioning person" was never a broad painting of how people find joy. It refers to anyone with a healthy mind both physically and mentally. For example, you have mentioned reaching levels of joy. If you can only reach certain levels of joy through marijuana use, that would be a sign that you have an issue either with your brain having normal dopamine levels or a psychological issue that is effecting your happiness. "But it is a relationship that I have attempted to make with this plant that makes me feel closer with my surroundings in nature, and closer with who I am as a person." And this is what I mean by a "normal functioning person". There is nothing in the drug that provides a special path in your mind to make you closer with nature or provide special insights into who you are. If your mind is healthy you can find those things on your own faster than you can on drugs. "I would rather die than give up and try to fit in, I will never quit in trying to change this rock floating through space to be a better place for everyone. It's when you've given up just to survive that you've truly lost yourself." I have the advantage of age and experience to say yes you will eventually give up in the idea that you can change the world. It is not a matter of trying to fit in. You will eventually realize that time moves a hell of a lot faster than it did those first twenty years and as some point you will realize life is very short and you would rather spend it living your life than wasting it on unobtainable ideals. With very few exceptions, everyone goes through this. "I'm sorry that you've lost touch with life my friend." Again you are wrong but as I say you are at a disadvantage being only 20. I live a very comfortable life and by my own rules (as much as is possible). I have had more personal (and creative) accomplishments than most people will ever have in their life. No, I quite enjoy life and look forward to it every day. I can take a walk in the woods without drugs and see an amazing world. I have never lost the spark in my eye.
Posted By: Posted On: Jan 13, 2007 Views: 497	RE: RE: Marijuana, why are so many closed minded a "I never said anything about needing it or wanting to be creative you are extrapolating." Maybe you should pay attention if you want to be taken seriously. "These are not justifications of driving, they are REASONS to drive" Of course they are reasons to drive. The point your very bad comparison misses is that If I decided to go out and drive for the hell of it I would say exactly that and not try to justify it with the fantasy notion that it helps me see the world from different eyes or makes me a more creative person. If a person likes to get stoned they should just say that and not try to make it into something it is not. "at this point I'm not trying very hard" It shows. " You have no right to go on degrading people under the smokescreen of being rational." Sounds like you have self esteem issues. "no well versed psychiatrist would tell you to go get treatment for low CREATIVITY (not to mention saying someone who is less creative than your holier than thou self isn't functioning properly is a ridiculous insult not a fact)" Perhaps you need to reread that part a couple of times to understand it. There was never any suggestion that someone should seek help for low creativity or that a person should have a certain level of creativity. The statement clearly says that if an individual must rely on a substance like marijuana as a source for creativity then they would do good to get some help to determine what medical or psychological problems exist that is preventing them from there desired creativity without drugs. "there are no pharmaceuticals made for enhancing creativity. The notion is actually ridiculous." Yes it is and I am not sure why you brought it up since I never did. "However there is well documented use of recreational drugs by artists, writers, poets, ect." There are also many well documented accounts or artists, writers, etc self destructing on drugs as well as artists, writers, etc not using drugs. There is no point being made here. "There have been many well documented cases of workers in Jamaica being REQUIRED to smoke before work because it actually increases productivity. As for other "negative outside influences" Kratom has a widely documented use in Indonesia, helping workers get through their often boring workdays." A few isolated examples do not overrule medical fact. Your example of Kraton is a poor one since it is usually consumed at low doses where it behaves as a stimulant much like caffeine. Workers that take higher doses are prone to falling asleep on the job. That hardly demonstrates where the drug provides something that does not exist without it. "Who says I was talking specifically to you? It was an open invitation for anyone to jump into the leagalization argument." Not really. You said "Theres a few other minor ones but, I'm out of time if you post 'em I'll refute them :P" which was clearly directed at me. "Really what the hell is your point?" You seem to have some problems with reading comprehension and understanding complex ideas. You show no ability to grasp the discussion here so you jump to conclusions that have no basis. Until you can follow along and understand what is being said here, our conversation is over.
Posted By: dsg Posted On: Jan 13, 2007 Views: 493	RE: RE: Marijuana, why are so many closed minded a You contradict yourself over and over. "Maybe you should pay attention if you want to be taken seriously." wtf? Your telling me to pay attention to my own argument? I think I know what I wrote. "Yes it is and I am not sure why you brought it up since I never did." By bringing up psychiatry you brought up pharmaceuticals, they are the only way a doctor could treat a chemical imbalance; psychoanalysis would have no relevance here. "Of course they are reasons to drive. The point your very bad comparison misses is that If I decided to go out and drive for the hell of it I would say exactly that and not try to justify it with the fantasy notion that it helps me see the world from different eyes or makes me a more creative person. If a person likes to get stoned they should just say that and not try to make it into something it is not." I never said anything about making me a more creative person, observant did, personally I find his views a little over romanticized but, who am I to judge? Plus by your own admition you've never tried how can you pass judgment on it? Not really. You said "Theres a few other minor ones but, I'm out of time if you post 'em I'll refute them :P" which was clearly directed at me. No not really, I just told you it wasn't directed at you. So your debating me about what I meant? You can be plural buddy. "You seem to have some problems with reading comprehension and understanding complex ideas. You show no ability to grasp the discussion here so you jump to conclusions that have no basis. Until you can follow along and understand what is being said here, our conversation is over." There are few commonalities between your arguments, you play both sides of the fence from the beginning not really proving anything. The only thing you have been consistent on is your calling an spade a spade idea, which really who cares what someone says about something you've never tried? "Sounds like you have self esteem issues." Wrong and irrelevant. Basically dude you make almost no sense and when your called on this you make personal attacks with little or no relevance to the debate at hand. Take a look at whats been posted both me and observant picked up on the flaws in your argument and posted 2 different view points about it, any good points I make you simply ignore. Get off your high horse buddy why do you even care how someone chooses or rationalizes their (by your own admition RELATIVELY harmless) habits?
Posted By: impersonator Posted On: Jan 14, 2007 Views: 488	RE: RE: Marijuana, why are so many closed minded about it? just to interject here real quickly dsg, my name is impersonator, not observant, ya ok thank you very much....lol. Oh and secondly, you guys are quoting so much that my print outs are really turning out to be quite a long procedure (I'm enjoying myself by reading over all that has been written for further use beyond this posting)....along with the ammount of space that you're putting between your paragraphs oh unknown one....now back to the argument at hand: Unknown one, as I read your lectures I'm finding that you're no longer trying to make points of your own, you are just trying to turn our own words against us without the conversation leading anywhere productive, but rather, it's just as though you're trying to gather ammo to fire back at us without you actually having your own personal view upon the question at hand. This only sends us into a loop where nobody actually accomplishes anything at all. The entire reason I have behind posting this, is just that I want peoples honest view upon why Americas view upon marijuana is so closed minded. I do thuroughly enjoy both of your views upon this subject, but now this has merely turned into a word game where we do nothing but critique eachother. Or rather, where I try to take what you have said to further explain myself and my views. It actually seems as though both of you are the aggitators trying to quarrel with one another over a power tripping battle. But unknown one, you speak of life going by so fast once you get older that you just begin to focus on what makes you happy in life. Isn't this selfish? That you should not care about the generations that follow you? I feel that we should be putting our focus into fixing this world so that we may push towards decreasing our sorrows in the world. If you were to be brought up in this world hundreds of years later (assuming that there still is one), then would you enjoy being brought up in a sorrowful place that tells you who you can and can not be? This is part of my reasoning, I'd like to make change to the world so that we my all aspire to be our very own beautiful selves without the normal guidelines that are pushed by our present ways. And dsg, I'm not "romantisizing things", I'm just very heartfelt in my beliefs lol.
Posted By: dsg Posted On: Jan 14, 2007 Views: 484	RE: Marijuana, why are so many closed minded about lawlz sorry about screwing up the name... I was just trying to defend a fellow tokah from the start haha
Posted By: Syrgot Posted On: Jan 14, 2007 Views: 481	RE: Marijuana, why are so many closed minded about impersonator, I didn't know you were 20. I'm 20! Woo! I thought I was by far younger than everyone here. I guess that's probably because I was younger than everyone, when I started poting here 4 years ago.
Posted By: Posted On: Jan 14, 2007 Views: 480	RE: Marijuana, why are so many closed minded about "Unknown one, as I read your lectures I'm finding that you're no longer trying to make points of your own, you are just trying to turn our own words against us without the conversation leading anywhere productive, but rather, it's just as though you're trying to gather ammo to fire back at us without you actually having your own personal view upon the question at hand. This only sends us into a loop where nobody actually accomplishes anything at all." Yes, I have found that I have had to spend my posts trying to rehash things in an attempt to get dsg to understand what are pretty simple concepts but I also stated at the end of my last post that I will no longer be engaging him/her until such a point that they are able to follow along and demonstrate some level of intelligence. It is obvious they are just here to start trouble much like the mepball character that hangs around. My guess is it probably is mepball. I actually have given my personal view several times. I have stated that if you aren't hurting anyone else, you should be able to do whatever you want to your body. "I want peoples honest view upon why Americas view upon marijuana is so closed minded." Because they have been told it is evil. Take a look at the DOJ's website on marijuana once. "It actually seems as though both of you are the aggitators trying to quarrel with one another over a power tripping battle." There is no quarrel when one person doesn't participate. That is dsg's game, not mine. "Isn't this selfish?" Absolutely but it is also realistic. "If you were to be brought up in this world hundreds of years later (assuming that there still is one)" Given the situation the world is in, it is hardly likely the human race will survive much past a few hundred years.

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