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| Posted By: Hutch Posted On: Mar 10, 2003 Views: 320 | Ye Occassional Rant Allright! Between the militant anarchic-pacifism of Legion (Im a pacifist but Im packin heat) to the my country, right or wrong Bushies like JSK (and by the way, JSK, look up the rest of that quote sometimesthe part that doesnt get repeated too often) and everybody else in between, I have heard enough of this silliness to finally lead me to one of my occasional rants. You're just lucky I'm only ranting, and am not feeling grumpy--you wouldn't want to see me grumpy. Chief Liaison Officer Hutch Here beginneth the rant. Is Saddam a bad, brutal guy? Well, yes, even the Arabs have little use for him. He has tortured, killed and generally ill-treated thousands of Iraqis, not to mention the gassing of the Kurds and ****ies. Even legion will admit that Saddam is the kind of guy you wish would step on a landmine sometime soon. So this means we should depose him? Give you a hintthere are LOTS of bad, brutal people running countries right now. And some of them are our best buds (i.e. Pakistan). Heck, Saddam was getting glad-handed by America for years until he invaded Kuwait. Nixon made friends with Mao (how many millions of his peoples blood was on his hands?) and FDR cooperated and supported Stalin against Hitler. If we are going to knock off every bad, brutal ruler on the planet, well, roll up your sleeves, folks, its gonna take awhile. But isnt he a threat to the region? Well, lets see. Even with a reduced military, he could probably still take out Kuwait or Saudibut to do so would bump directly into American forces and lead to dead/captured American soldierswhich would mean the end of debate in the US, Saddam is toast. He could go after Syria, but that would bring him next door to Israel, and Ill let you imagine how Crazy Al Sharon would react to that. Turkey and Iran are simply to strong for him to attack in his present condition. Anywhere else he like to golike after me, for example--hell have to bump heads with the 6th Fleetwhich is not recommended for ones health. Yeah, but what about Israel? Well, if he has any Scuds left (debatable) and he has chemical or biological weapons, he could hit them. But he knows (and his generals know) that Israel most certainly has nukes and very probably Chem- and Bio-War stuff nastier than his and wouldnt hesitate to use them if a lot of Israelis get killed. He had a much better chance to do it in 1991 and didnt; and with Patriot and Arrow anti-missile batteries and special ops troops already in the area hed have to launch from, the chances of his getting an attack through are slim. Speaking of which, what about those Chemical and Biological weapons? Well, chemical weapons have been around since 1915 (something else Europe had to learn the hard way) and while storing and handling are an issue, their making is cookbook chemistry that any country could do (or group, remember the Japanese cult with the Sarin gas). Biological weapons are a bit harder, but anyplace with sufficient PhDs and petri dishes can cook up something nastylike our own little anthrax mail pest. Simply put, those spirits are out of the bottle and the only thing that keeps from being used more often is the good sense (and fear of retaliation) of the worlds leaders. NOTE: Given the caliber of todays world leaders, you are permitted a shudder while contemplating the previous sentence. But generally speaking, any nation with a modest industrial capability I guarantee can produce Chemical weapons and very probably Biologicals. Disarming Saddam for this is like trimming off one head of the Hydrathere will be 3-4 more to take his place. But what if he gives some of them to Terrorist groups? Well, terrorists probably can develop their own Chemical weapons (that Japanese cult again) and with Osamas millions, maybe even some biologicals. Odds are better they would steal them from Russia (security is lax) or buy them on the black market (Russia or N. Korea) than from Saddam. The same goes for nukes, if Saddam even has them (very doubtful at this time). Never forget, Saddam and the Islamic fundies hate one anotherSaddam has persecuted them a lot longer than he has been mad at us. The only thing they have in common is that they see the US as the big threatand even there, not in the same way. Saddam and Fundie Islamic terrorists may talk but they will never be on the same page or trust one another enough for Saddam to give them those weapons (since they might just choose to use them on him first!). OK, you convinced meinspections with a strong Military threat posture will keep Saddam defangedso there will be no war, will there? Unless Saddam steps on the above-mentioned land mine, there will most certainly be war. But why, if the threat is enough to make Saddam heel? Because of money and logistics. It costs a HUGE amount to move 250,000 men and their equipment 7,000 miles away and then keep them supported in the style to which Americans have become accustomed. And the bill keeps getting bigger every day. Sit them through the summer and youll pay as much as you would to have fought the war. So we can bring some home and leave a smaller force there, right? Uh-huh, and have the Europeans say they were right all along and for Saddam to crow about his triumph over another Bush? IMHO, President Shrub would rather cut off his left ball with a dull knife than have that happen. Problem is 250,000-300,000 men are not a deterrent force-they are an invasion force and the only rationale for having that many troops here is to invade. So invade or go home without invading are the only options the US has now left itself. A show of hands who think well go home with a fightnone, good, youre learning. OK, were in a position where there will be war, even if its not really necessary. It will be short and painless (to Americans, at least), wont it? Depends. Depends on what? How Iraq chooses to fight and how the people react. In open combat there is no comparisonIraqs equipment is 10 years old and poorly maintained, US equipment is 2 generations advanced from Desert Storm. In any open, moving battle the only question is how many Iraqis will die before they get the chance too surrender. But if the battle moves into cities and towns, and if the Iraqi people decide that having US soldiers invading their homes is less tolerable than Saddams troops, then it could get bloody and slow and the US could find itself at a disadvantage. Why a disadvantage, we have 300,000 men, dont we? Well, lets do some mathtake away about 100,000 for the Navy and Air Force, who wont be on the front lines, then about 50,000 support troops that will be supporting the fighters but are not in any combat roles, then minus 50,000 more in tanks and helicopters and vehicles, good for a war of movement but not so good for house to house street fighting, keep about 25,000 in reserveand you have about 75,000 ground-pounders to take over a city of 5 million, perhaps building by building. This could get messy and it could widely disperse American and British troops if such fighting takes place in every city in Iraq. But it wont will it, the Iraqis will welcome us with open arms, wont they? Thats what Bush is betting the ranch (and Blair his political future) on. Maybe theyre right. Or maybe the same Iraqis who fought Iran for 7 years (and 600,000 casualties) will decide (or be forced) to fight. Clauzewitz called it the fog of war and nobody knows what will happen until it does. So, Saddam is a threat but he is contained and we will win the war that we dont have to fight but the price cannot be known ahead of timethat about right? Now youre thinking like a Frenchman. Here endeth the rant. |
| Posted By: legion Posted On: Mar 10, 2003 Views: 317 | RE: pretty good rant... ...well, as a pacifist, anarchist, atheist, opponent of the 'death penalty' even I would acknowledge that there are monstrous evil diabolical bad guys in this world (not Chin) and that sometimes we have to come together collectively around the communal drinking pond to bash their brains in for the overall good of the herd. Even I will admit that if Saddam were in the crosshairs of my 22-250 at this very moment I would not hesitate to pull the trigger sending him off to his imaginary 72 virgin Valhalla. The same goes for the Binster, or any number of other waste-of-human-skin-meat-bags who serve no purpose in this world. I do not care MORE/OR LESS about how many 'American lives' might or might not be lost on any given Imperial Crusade any MORE/OR LESS than I care about Iraqi or Afghani lives - We the People are all brothers and sisters who must first and foremost NOT KILL EACH OTHER in our opposition to tyranny and oppression. So even though I generally oppose nation-states acting as judge, jury and executioner (as in the 'death penalty') you would find that even the most radical pacifists would do a little happy-dance if the U.S. were to cruise missile Husseins Reichstag killing the murderous old fart. This is why 'gun control' is always a priority for tyrants - We the People cannot 'rise up' to oppose tyranny with only pitchforks and shovels when the scum-bag has thousands of heavily armed flunkies guarding his worthless hide. The Warsaw Ghetto uprising might have actually been successful had the Jews not been disarmed by 'gun control' laws years earlier. The Ruling Classes have always regarded We the People as being expendable, which is the whole purpose for the 'Armed Forces' in the first place. The Ruling Overlords regard Military Service as 'Workfare' for the poor and the 'useless eaters' (to paraphrase Hitler), who would otherwise be on welfare, so might as well have them marching about in circles or digging holes only to fill them in again - or sending them off to kill other poor people who stand in the way of the geopolitical interests of the rich. I know it's an odd dichotomy considering the symbiotic parasitism of the feddle gubbermint who make their living off other peoples taxes, or the rich who exist in luxury as a direct result of the exploitation of others having never done a days work in their lives, but there you have it. The people need to understand and realize WHO the real enemy is. It's the Rulers. It always has been the Rulers. To a lesser extent than the nutjobs of the third world, it is even our Rulers in the West. The sooner We the People grasp this fact and shrug off the indoctrination programming of the Central Authority and our 'Educational Institutions' that are meant more to promote conformity than to 'educate' the better off we will all be. |
| Posted By: JSK Posted On: Mar 10, 2003 Views: 303 | RE: Ye Occassional Rant Hey Hutch , Well , I can seriously say theres really no right or wrong way to defend some conversations people have with others especially when it comes to a delicate subject like war. Maybe in better taste yes and I'll admit I have sounded and acted rude. Heck , even I read some of my crap and cringe ... but for one bash I get I'll be happy to give right back. Lots said are 1/2 meant or misunderstood just as all the rest of the "happy we wanna get a long people in here." I've held my tongue pleanty of times in the past and had to sit through spools of garbage from various forign persons. Its one thing to say your countries wrong , its another to get into saying Your all a bunch of idiots and we hate your country. I really can't think of anyone who reads any board and wouldn't feel a little ****ed off from it ? Most if not all usually brought up by forign person(s) for no unsightly reason to begin with? Yes, we all know there might be a war going on , but isn't this board and other boards better when talking more about what its intended for ? And not to say I didn't know who'd follow the map into this board , I knew and just hoped it would spark better conversations than some of the others. It started to and ran out of gas . Hopefully we can get it running again ? I'm not even going to get into the facts with these people. I have in the past so now its just babble followed by insults. As I said for each stupied little letter of Anti-Americanism they can get some back. Hey , its the least I could do. If people don't want to read these comments anyone can plainly see that atleast any comments about fem/fem stays that way. I'll applaud that atleast. But, in situations like this one does shoot the mouth off whether you mean it or not . Just like Leege's comments above saying he'd rather see American's die instead of any innocent Iraqies ? Maybe if I were not American I might agree ... who knows . I'd still look more into it and ask myself if people doing what they think is right a reason to die aswell ? Thats what I wanted to get at and mean but instead I said I'd rather see any Iraq person die (even in the masses) than one American life . Well I meant that too . And because given our situation I stand behind that statement. I can't see what more of a right forigners have to downplay the life of our troops ? Including yourself who comes to this board and he knows this . He simply opposes America & I oppose Iraq for a much better reason to speak how I do . Who wouldn't want his own to prevail ? Leege's people are not even in this or wanting a part of it. They certainly don't seem to fear us or Sadam so whats their worry? Stay outta of it ! Thats also what I relay to the others who's countries are not really doing anything to help the situation at the moment. You don't hear me bashing anyone else . I know many good people who are in this war and could be standing right next to you Hutch . Just because I am not there isn't a reason I am shooting my mouth off or coming off like a maniac towards other person's or countries. Its the basis of why I back our country up even more , but not the only reason. If you think I'm wrong or insane the way I do so , you should listen to others who speak elsewhere not only here man (LOL) Besides you really think this is the only way I feel and act in regards to this situation ? I do and speak my part other ways dispite the nonsense I've been ramblin latley ... and repeatativeness. (LOL) My responsiblity lies elsewhere than on the net when helping out my country . I guess you'd say its my way of ****ting out my aggressions , which now have just turned to utter bordom on the entire subject. Its all turned to insults and will get no better ... maybe I should have seen it coming? tsk,tsk,jsk ! We may not always be the nice giant and in this case every point does lead to it or atleast better action than just talking and playing hide and go seek . Now its time to throw our weight around. You know we too have pleanty up ours sleaves than just to run into towns firing at each other. I don't even think it would have come to this if more countries back the situation better than we are going to. But , would it really make Sadam stop what he's doing ? Would it help change a government ? NO . This is my thanks to the forign countries for truly not helping out.... this is why I sound like a mean little bastard ! And all they do is bitch about the whole thing they really want no part in. And its one thing to back the iraq people , its another to do so while putting down a country like ours . Ones who are not seeking to kill their people (just the leader!) That is the true hatred and the only hurt I see that we'll face in this war. War of words . Sadam & his people have nothing we won't and can't beat us any other way. I'd rather spend my HARDEARNED dollars on things that work and I think this method will. Sure we pay a fortune for being over there now ... but its money in the bank in years to come. Not only for us , but for the people in Iraq. I'll do you one better Hutch and just go on to say I've said my peace on the situation . Unless I really , really feel its urgent and something comes up I'll just stick to the fem/fem thing ... something I like much better anyways. I am sure these types of conversations will go on forever with what happens anyways. Not like what anyone who talks here does it much of any good anyways .... Stay well & stay safe~ J. |
| Posted By: Dionysus Posted On: Mar 10, 2003 Views: 302 | Oh now here's another interesting thread Yet again another interesting well argued post by Mr Hutch. I'm going to read this again when I have more free time. Pleasant to read such a thoughtful message, thanks for taking the time to think it out. I'll join in with Fluffy too when I get more time hopefully to assess your thoughtful missive. Time for bed and cocoa Night night Dio p.s. Yes Legion, yours was interesting too as they always are you Canadian peasant! ;) |
| Posted By: Dio Posted On: Mar 10, 2003 Views: 301 | Posted nearly at the same time JSK, you must have posted your message as I was writing mine. Just noticed it when I hit the submit button. I'll have a read tomorrow, as I'm nodding off here. Toodle pip Dio |
| Posted By: alfonsothefan Posted On: Mar 11, 2003 Views: 286 | RE: Ye Occassional Rant Not so much a rant as what you really think; we always appreciate your contributions, Hutch. First, let me say that many would be awestruck and slackjawed if they saw how often I've agreed with legion, particularly when it concerns issues of gun rights and intrusive government. That said, allow me to say a word in defence of JSK: as he stated, he often feels compelled to issue direct and pointed words at others, particularly foreign (from us here in the USA) contributers who seem to have little to nothing good to say about the U.S. Now, having said that, please understand that all of us here...from every side... hopes that war can and will be avoided. I don't particulary care if Saddam is whacked by a .38 special, an M60 shell or a granade. I don't care if the dude is poisened, beaten to death or electricuted. I just want him dead. Period. Now, yes there are others in the world who appear to be bad guys and I'll not argue with you on most, though the Pakistani leader appears to be on the side of the angels, for now. One more point: a certain European, certainly one of the usual suspects JSK wrote about, has written ad nauseum about how evil the USA is, how "ignorant" I and J are, etc. That is, of course, his right. I'll point out that his opinions are a tiny minority opinion example of what our Euro friends think, however; in truth, his rants about me being a 'racist' are repugnant and vile. You know me, somewhat. You have read JSK. Never, ever, have I read where either of us have proposed instituting racist policies or the killing of innocents. We are, truly, all trying to sail in the same direction. Let us hope our boats don't ram each other too often; the waters are turbulent enough! Later, atf |
| Posted By: legion Posted On: Mar 11, 2003 Views: 277 | RE: I forgot... ...to tell you what the "reaction" will be by the Iraqis. Naturally I predicted the virtual certainty of the warpigs going to war months ago (as Hutch will verify), so after I have predicted it no one should be surprised like it's all a big mystery when the warpigs go to war. That is their nature. As Hannibal Lecter would say "Ask yourself of anything - What is it's nature?" So, let's not have anymore of this "I wonder what will happen if?" nonsense. Further Magic 8-ball gazing tells me the Iraqi people will be happy to lay down their weapons and will not turn this misadventure into a Stalingrad street by street armed defense of their vainglorious "leader". And why not? They have no weapons and they're getting rid of a real nasty guy in Saddam, at least until the U.S. abandons them to go off in search of more excellent warpig misadventure like it did the last time and like it did to the people of Afghanistan. Remember the words of 'Fred' on the people of Vietnam -"The vast majority of the Vietnam people just wanted the war to go away so they could grow rice." So don't get your panties in a bunch, there won't be any American lives lost, except when the over-eager to murder somebody Military jarheads accidentally kill each other by mistake. This is called "friendly fire" but I call it "Karmic justice". People do not want war, people almost NEVER want war, because wars traditionally never work out too good for we the people. Only "leaders" want war, because of course they don't have to actually fight...and cowardly chicken-hawk war potatoes who think it's cool to watch human beings get incinerated on the war network, CNN. They love to see babies burned up, just as long as they're not AMERICAN babies. They think burning up villages Rambo style with napalm is the NEAT-O macho stuff that real He-men are made of. Great work boneheads. Way to save the world for freedumb and dumbocracy. |