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| Posted By: alfonsothefan Posted On: Apr 23, 2004 Views: 566 | Pat Tillman, RIP Just found out that the former Arizona Cardinal and ASU Sun Devil Pat Tillman was killed today in Afghanistan. Tillman turned down millions to fight in the war on terror after 9/11/01 to join the army and fight in the special forces, ABC News has reported. Also, something bothered me yesterday after writing about my father -- especially since yesterday was his birthday (he died in 1972) -- and I need to set something straight. He DID avoid WW II in that he had a child at home (my older sister) and he DID have to sacrifice in that he had to sell his business and go to work in a war related industry. He truly was a passivist. One time in a bar a man much bigger than he tried to start a fight. He punched my dad in the nose. My father, with a bloody nose, held the man in a bear hug, wresetled him to the floor, refused to punch back and bled so much on the guy that the other guy got sick. Kinda the way he conducted himself when sober: With dignity and grace. To him, violence was a poor solution. Tillman and my dad. I'm not sure who makes me more confused. But I do honor and respect Tillman and I loved my dad and respected his different views. Perhaps we can all learn from each, I spoze. Sorry, didn't mean to ramble... Carry on... atf |
| Posted By: Tangler100 Posted On: Apr 23, 2004 Views: 562 | You're not ramblin' there. Real sorry to hear about your dad, Fonz. Tillman won't have died in vain, no matter what the outcome of Iraq is. He died doing his best. When his soul gets to the after-life, his biggest admirers will be the souls of those other dozens of Iraqi kids who were murdered a couple of days ago by those better-off-dead-than-alive terrorists. Just volunteer me to be a one-man firing squad for Saddam Hussein's execution. I promise I'll get a real good view, and will be damn glad to send everybody back a postcard of the final scenery. (Likewise for OBL.) Tang |
| Posted By: Rough Posted On: Apr 23, 2004 Views: 551 | RE: Pat Tillman, RIP I have to say, though, that the coverage today of his death has kind of bothered me. Granted, he was a noted sports fugure, who gave up fame and fortune to go serve in Afghanistan...but what about the other 700 whose sacrifice was just as great? You don't see headline tributes to them on CNN. It doesn't seem right, somehow. |
| Posted By: alfonsothefan Posted On: Apr 23, 2004 Views: 547 | RE: Pat Tillman, RIP Point well taken, Rough, my friend. What does make this special is that the guy turned down a $3.6 million offer to defend principles that Hollywood and much of the business and "higher learning" world can never understand. There is a plaque in Poland, placed in a concentration camp. It says, "Beyond life there is honor." Either one believes this or one doesn't. In the past I've written about the findings of Northeastern University profs Drs. Fox and Levin, who say that about 1 out of 4 people they have surveyed, from rich to poor, from white to black, from all parts of the USA, one quarter of the population display elements of sociopathology, wherein the individual has little or no "feelings" or "concern" about anything other than themselves. IOW, the world revolves around them. Instant pleasure is the critical concern; compassion, or a display of same, is sometimes shown, but this is usually a ploy. These people, btw, come from all political types. Curiously, however, I have noted that many people find it incredulous that others are willing to sacrifice for the good of others. I DO NOT find it strange that Hollywood types and "Joe 6 packs" who care so little about what is happening in the world cannot fathom a guy like Tillman. In short, I agree that we'll hear all too much about him and precious little about others, but this 'story' really isn't about Tillman at all. It's about the ramifications that will ripple throughout the land. I await the idiot comments and thoroughly off putting 'remarks' like after 9/11. I still remember some ditz writing that -- perhaps -- the CIA and FBI were behind it. Horrible. But ya...he was "merely one of many" & I believe Pat would have been the first to have agreed with you, Rough. atf |
| Posted By: Rough Posted On: Apr 23, 2004 Views: 543 | RE: Pat Tillman, RIP No doubt about it, his heart was in the right place. He did sign on right after 9/11, I believe, and was in Afghanistan. Things were so different in the months right after the attacks, as we had that window of opportunity when we had the world's sympathy. Many throughout the world, including myself, supported going into Afghanistan. But, I'll always believe that we should have concentrated more in that region, until the job was done...Osama caught or killed and al Queda squelched...instead of purposely spreading the fight to Iraq, a country that had no definitive links to al Queda, hadn't had WMDs in about 10 years, and had never attacked the US. |
| Posted By: Tangler100 Posted On: Apr 23, 2004 Views: 540 | Pentagon ban on showing the coffins ... ... should itself be banned. There is an association of sorts of families of fallen Military personnel. By all means the final decision on whether or not to show a returning soldier's coffin in the media should be left up to the soldier's family or next-of-kin, but the Pentagon is not gaining any points by its outright banning these photos from the media. What everybody needs to remember, as Rough and Fonz say, is TO remember everybody. The WWII Memorial is finally finished, and, even before this Afghan and Iraqi business is done (will it ever be ??? ...), somebody tell the Memorial Commission it's work is not. |
| Posted By: Harry Posted On: Apr 23, 2004 Views: 526 | RE: Pat Tillman, RIP Good point Rough. Tangler, that's an excellent point too: "By all means the final decision on whether or not to show a returning soldier's coffin in the media should be left up to the soldier's family or next-of-kin, but the Pentagon is not gaining any points by its outright banning these photos from the media." Interesting thing is neither American Media nor American People are saying "Hey what's going on with our basic democratic rights and freedom?" I can understand that happening in North Korea but it doesn't suit to the U.S.A. One question Tangler...why do you want to shoot Saddam so badly? |
| Posted By: Mikey Posted On: Apr 23, 2004 Views: 523 | RE: Pat Tillman, RIP I think part of what has made the Tillman situation so enticing is that both he and his brother were top level professional athletes, not simply high school kids who joined the military because they didn't know what direction to take in life. These guys were moved by the 9/11 tragedy and felt that they had to do something more substantial than just wear a flag pin on their lapel. Plus, they didn't make a big deal out of it. No huge press conferences, no "Hey look what we're doing! Aren't we great!?" as would be expected from today's selfish, spoiled, pampered pro athletes. Even when Pat came home briefly last year, he kept a low profile, did no interviews and just made a quick visit with the Cardinals and then left again. It's a display of honor, sacrifice, and love of country that is sorely lacking today. Many who oppose the war will probably use Pat's death to deride his choice, but as the father of a currently serving Marine, I have nothing but respect for the young man and the courageous path he took with his life. In regards to the lack of televising of flag draped coffins, I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would want to look at something like that. Is it necessary for people to gawk like ghouls as coffins are unloaded from cargo planes? Cannot the average viewer understand that soldiers have died without a macabre procession of boxes scrolling across their TV screens? It is disrespectful to the fallen and their families to display their remains in this fashion. If you want to convey the scope of fatalities, stick to images of tombstones or crosses, like at Arlington for instance, after the soldiers have been laid to rest. It is only common decency after all! |
| Posted By: Harry Posted On: Apr 23, 2004 Views: 518 | RE: Pat Tillman, RIP I think part of what has made the Tillman situation so enticing is that both he and his brother were top level professional athletes, not simply high school kids who joined the military because they didn't know what direction to take in life. These guys were moved by the 9/11 tragedy and felt that they had to do something more substantial than just wear a flag pin on their lapel. You're just proving Rough's point. I would be very upset to read what you wrote if I were a relative of one of those dead "high school kids who joined the military because they didn't know what direction to take in life" In regards to the lack of televising of flag draped coffins, I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would want to look at something like that. Is it necessary for people to gawk like ghouls as coffins are unloaded from cargo planes? Cannot the average viewer understand that soldiers have died without a macabre procession of boxes scrolling across their TV screens? It is disrespectful to the fallen and their families to display their remains in this fashion. If you want to convey the scope of fatalities, stick to images of tombstones or crosses, like at Arlington for instance, after the soldiers have been laid to rest. It is only common decency after all! Common decency is a very relative term. Exposing Janet Jackson's boob is against many peoples sense of common decencey, FvF wrestling is against many people's sense of common decency, we can list countless subjects...that is one thing, and banning media to photograph such things is quite another thing. |
| Posted By: Mikey Posted On: Apr 23, 2004 Views: 511 | Harry Cut and paste the rest of my post Harry, I'm the father of one of those "high school kids" myself. I said nothing to diminish the sacrifice made by anyone who has lost their life in this war. My point was only that the media fascination was due to the fact that Tillman made a decision, knowing full well that we were going to war, to leave a life that most men of his age can only dream of and risk his life for his country. There has already been a great deal said about the soldiers who had joined the service never actually expecting to have to be in actual combat. Especially members of the reserves. Tillman and his brother joined up knowing full well the consequences and risks of their decision. Add to that the fact that they joined the Rangers, and it is obvious that they wanted to be in the fight, up front where it was dangerous. It is an impressive decision on their part. I find your position on "relative decency" laughable. Perhaps we should show full frontal nudity and live sex on network TV during the dinner hour. I'm sure there are those who would not be offended by that. Does that make it right? Does that mean everyone should have those images forced upon them? Perhaps there should be no bounds or limits whatsoever on what is shown on news programs or in the paper. Please! What I'm talking about is showing a little compassion for the families of the deceased and some respect for the dead. Or does your lust for every posible image that you can use to justify your opposition to this war trump the feelings of those who have lost a loved one in the war? |
| Posted By: Harry Posted On: Apr 23, 2004 Views: 508 | RE: Pat Tillman, RIP Mikey, you have a son in the army and he is fighting in Afghanistan and you are proud of it. Everyone knows that people die in wars. If someone is so proud to be in a war or proud to have his son in a war, why would he feel so bad when he saw his son's coffin coming back wrapped in his countries flag and everyone honoring him as a hero? If my son died in a war and only represented a number on the casualties list without any recognition that would've hurt my feelings and pride even worse. But if you actually believe your son's life is more valuable than the cause he is ready to die for, then you should've tried your best to stop him. |
| Posted By: Rough Posted On: Apr 23, 2004 Views: 503 | RE: Pat Tillman, RIP I don't believe for a second that the decision not to show the returning coffins was an act of "compassion for the families". That's a crock of it. Bush has never cared for the troops. He never fought in a war and, like Rumsfeld, hasn't a CLUE what the hell he's talking about when he spouts "Bring 'em on", like an ass. No, everyone may not have the desire to see the coffins of the fallen returning, but it should be our RIGHT to see them in a free society. When direct orders are given NOT to show flag draped coffins being returned home..when they are, in fact, spirited home in the dead of night like some dirty little secret...it reaks of a government that's trying to cover up the harsh reality of what this war is...of what EVERY war is. Numbers on the screen bear out no feelings whatsover..they're only stats. But, images of caskets coming home have an impact..it's something that resonates and gets you right in the gut. There's no way Bush wants the public to see images like that...ESPECIALLY in an election year. Heaven forbid! Like Bear stated, it's totally resprehensible. Bush tries to show compassion, but it always rings hallow. What can you say? Next to Reagan, he's the worst actor we've ever had in there. All he cares about is getting re-elected, at all costs. If he has to, he'll steal another one. I really think that Bush, along with most politicians, is in that percentage that Fonz eluded to..the selfish ones who really only care for themselves. You combine that with power and you have the ingredients for disasters...like unnecessary wars that didn't have to be fought. Mikey, I hope your son makes it back alright. |
| Posted By: Bear Posted On: Apr 23, 2004 Views: 500 | RE: Pat Tillman, RIP Well stated, Rough. And let me echo your sentiment to Harry that his son makes it home OK. One of my former students from last year stopped by today to say "hello" and "good-bye." He's shipping out for Afghanistan next week. I told him to stay low. What the hell else can I say? One of my good friends coached Tillman at ASU and referred to Pat as a true hero. That was 2 years ago when he left the NFL to join the Army. Now my friend and I have something in common: we've both lost former players in the last 6 months. I hope that I don't lose anymore. At least Tillman's demise occurred in Afghanistan. I can fully understand while we're doing what we're doing there. The Iraq situation is a whole different story. I think Bush and Cheney are getting off on playing "RISK" for real. Gee this is fun! |
| Posted By: Rough Posted On: Apr 23, 2004 Views: 499 | PS And to reiterate...Iraq is the "unnecessary war", imho. I've always generally supported the campaign in Afghanistan to try and root out the core of al Queda. It's been far from perfect, thanks to guys like Rumsfeld, but it did have a purpose that I could support, after 9/11. |
| Posted By: Rough Posted On: Apr 23, 2004 Views: 492 | Aww, hell....one more thing, while I'm on it I know it seems like I'm awfully hard on Bush. I don't think he's a "bad" man...just dangerously narrowminded and easily misguided. I'll be kind, for the moment, and simply say that he's not bright. Naive as I am, up until a few weeks ago, I honestly thought that Donald Rumsfeld had served in the military at some point. I knew that the Defense Secretery was appointed, and yet it seemed to make sense...that the Secretery of Defense would have actually been in the military! Come to find out, he hadn't! Well okay...my already low opinion of that old codger just dropped a few more points. And I guess that's what REALLY gets me about men like him and Bush. These guys, along with Dick Cheney, never fought in a war alongside a band of brothers....that really says it all for me, right there. And let's see, who was the guy opposed to the war in Iraq? That's right, Powell..the one guy that was actually in a war. Kind of tells you something, doesn't it? I actually lost A LOT of respect for Powell when he fell in line with the rest of them. He says he's not going to come back for a second Bush term. Well, too late for me...if he would have really felt so strongly about not going into Iraq, he should have resigned over a year ago. I really believe that. Back to chickenhawk guys like Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld and their ignorance about what war really is. I've never been in a war either, thank God. But, my grandfather was on Iwo Jima (with NO sign of John Wayne, go figure)..and of course my poor dad was lost because of 'Nam. Unlike them, and guys like Fonz, I will NEVER know the horror of war. I've heard enough stories and first hand accounts to know that it is an unimaginable hell that changes you forever...that ALL you really have is that band of brothers there to fight alongside you and give you support. I don't have a clue, either. My old grandad died two years ago....tough as a briar knot, he was. He made it to 81, and you know it took him right up until the last few months of his life before he could talk about the day his PT boat was shot to hell and he saw 20 of his friends blown to bits right in front of him. He knew he was dying, back in '02...we all sensed it, and he was finally coming to terms with the war and sharing it with us for the first and only time. Throughout my life, not just my father and grandfather, but others in my life have been in wars. I had a college professor, who I'm still good friends with, who was in 'Nam. One of the smartest guys I've ever known, but there's no doubt he still carries that tour of duty with him every single day of his life...and he still wrestles with it, I know. My point being, these politicians never "went there", they never experienced those life altering, gut wrenching events. They never had a group of guys who they could call brothers..never formed those bonds. They may know about strategies, war games, a thousand other linguistics...war "on paper", but they do NOT know what war IS...what is always has been, and always will be. They can be told countless war stories but they're still clueless, having never beeen there. They have no idea..no frame of reference, and even though they may believe that what they are doing is right, I can't help but shake my head every time I hear one of Bush or Rumsfeld's swaggering, gung ho speeches. How can they REALLY know what they're talking about? I guess guys like Fonz would say that it's always been that way, though. |
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