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| Posted By: alfonsothefan Posted On: Apr 30, 2004 Views: 356 | Continuation of a topic... Seeing as I am not able to view the ah, Vera vs whatever match, allow me to continue the topic as first mentioned below by our illustrious field marshall. Perhaps others here have also been in this situation, I don't know, but I have been (in part) in charge of the institutionalization and movement of POW's (Prisoner's of War); early 1969. Anyway, several portions of the "story" given by U.S. troops in Iraq in Dio's story, below, don't quite ring true. First: No one in the United States Army when I was inducted could ever -- I MEAN EVER!! -- say that they were never given training in and become knowledgeable about the Geneva Convention Rules Regarding the Treatment of Prisoners (1948). Geeze, but what a moron this one cowboy was, after getting his pants pulled down (figuratively) while pulling down an Iraqi detainee/prisoners pants (literally). Secondle: My pledge was to uphold the Constitution of the United States and to abide by all of my nations treaties (including the Geneva Convention). Even barring said Convention, does not human respect and dignity enter somewhere? Now, thanks to 17 out of 200,000 soldiers, we look almost as bad as Saddam. Unreal. The bottom line is: No soldier or policeman has a 'right' or a 'duty' to abuse, threaten or torture a prisoner (and yes, legion, I do remember my postulating a great while back about "is it EVER proper to torture a prisoner?" and while it IS possible that, to save thousands while being forced to torture a suspect, & one very well may have to, I would say that THAT issue, by the very nature of what's happening in Iraq now, is out of the question here). We in America may all look like Jeffrey Dahmers or Lt. Calleys to some, but any THINKING person knows that the best way to treat both enemy and friend alike is the old Golden Rule. When our enemies then refuse to act civilized it is all the more important for us to lead by example; God knows... Communists, Fascists, and terrorists of all stripes -- from eco-whackos to childish anarchists, from Nazi-like Moslem extremists to stomach churning NAMBLA jerk-weeds to 'queer power' types -- these sub-groups all tend to resort to violence and/or the subjugation of the human spirit and the rights of others along with the denigration of anyone who disagrees with them. It's our duty as free men & women to never, EVER, sink to their levels. What these 17 did is disgraceful and shocking and in no way represented the training I had -- nor, I believe -- the training of the men & women of the current armed forces. I would like to thank Dio for asking. Now, it appears that some British troops subjected prisoners to some type of torture or humiliation. This isn't good for our nations, our peoples or our cultures and is anathema with respect to our respective heritages. If not, it damned well should be... atf |
| Posted By: Bear Posted On: Apr 30, 2004 Views: 351 | RE: Continuation of a topic... I think it all comes down to this: War sucks! Atrocities and misbehavior have always been a part of war. We give a bunch of 19 year-olds automatic weapons, teach them how to kill then wonder why they do something stupid. Two weeks ago, when the Fallujians were maiming the 4 Americans whom they killed, the stateside chicken hawks, like Hannity and Savage, were incensed and shocked. Well, now the US doesn't look so good either. That's the face of war that was never shown in the movies or the newsreels, and it's what happens in every war, everywhere. BTW, I have it on good authority that Lt. Calley walked the plank for higher ups regarding the My Lai Massacre. If it wasn't ordered by higher brass, they at least knew about the planning. When the massacre was uncovered 3 years later, everyone ran for cover and left Calley hanging. Nothing new there either. |
| Posted By: alfonsothefan Posted On: Apr 30, 2004 Views: 348 | RE: Continuation of a topic... Of course you're right, Bear. The specifics of your commentary (Calley) was right on target. btw, Calley and I were both in the Americal Division, I in the 196th LIB and his was (and I may be wrong here) like the 193rd or something. By the grace of God, six months and some 60 clicks north I too could have been in that mess. But I gotta tell you: No reason/excuse justifies the killing of one innocent man, woman or child. None. When my cries against injustice against any prisoner or against landmines is laughed at by all over here, it's time to pack it all in. Which reminds me: Let's hope that the chicken hawks and others will not succeed. See, I was falsely accused of (guess who??) being a 'neo-con.' God, why not call me a pinko or Frenchman. Actually, Bill Kristol and his family have hated me for years (too involved to go over) and dispise Pat Buchanan and Joe Sobran, two of my heroes. Guess that puts me in good company. Since we (ah, Pat, Joey & I) didn't think the First (or second) Gulf War was a wise idea and since I see not reason to set the whole damn mid east on fire AND since I was one of the first to indicate that the phrase "Amen corner of the Israeli Lobby" was kinda cool (making me a 'crypto Nazi' hehehe) AND since I don't give a ratz azz for either Israel OR most Arab countries...ah...I am NOT well liked by most 'neo-cons'. Yeah, like that'll keep me awake at night.LOL America first and stay at home works for me. Still, I'll always pull for our troops; something our neo-con bar mitzvah butt boyz have a, ah, 'mixed' history of doing. Seems most were way too busy trying to get into the Israeli Army or going to 'grad school' to participate. What a better way to 'experience war' than to create it and run it. Hey, their kids aren't 'participating' any more than they did. The Fonz=neo-com?? Not in this lifetime. Belee dat atf |
| Posted By: hateful usa-er Posted On: May 1, 2004 Views: 341 | RE: Continuation of a topic... Hey Fonz, Basically if our men and women don't know the Geneva convention act of 68 then how will anyone else? And like it really applies for them (the enemy) Sure, it applies for us , but I've heard many stories from ALL the past wars of BOTH sides doing F-ed up s h i t to each other. Some taped, video, photographed or not. Doesn't matter. War is war and sometimes you need to do what you have to , to get the enemy to talk. Now ofcourse this is plainly a humiliation issue which is fine by me. Atleast its them and for some reason in this day and age people will side with .... serialkillers :) For all I know they just killed one of ours before hand. Lucky it wasn't me with the camera. Sure its bad, but shocking? I can't believe you guys don't think this happens during wars? Haven't you ever watch Hallocaust footage? Well unfortunatly they die these dinks don't. JSK |
| Posted By: alfonsothefan Posted On: May 1, 2004 Views: 331 | RE: Continuation of a topic... Actually Killer you are partly right: The U.S. and its allies were/are the only ones who stuck/stick to the rules of the Geneva Convention. The North Vietnamese? Hehehe...well, lets put it THIS way: In 1973 when the POWs were released, ever notice almost all of the men were officers or high ranking NCO's? Fact was, we were told that as specialists and PFC's and privates, we were 'worthless' to the Vietcng and NVA. So, we woulda been executed (and often were) on the spot. Yes, all of our enemies appear to evade the issue of the Geneva Convention, but should we not be held to a higher standard? Yes, yes, the "flufflies" will ALWAYS turn a blind eye to violence against the U.S. and it's allies (WTC attack, etc.) just as it domestically thought it was kinda cute what happened in Seattle and elsewhere whenever the 'Greens' & 'Anarchists' "took to the streets." Their duplicity is often overlooked by the mass media and liberals in general, but well...that's why they're f*cked up! All of 'em. We're just, ah...better! And that's all I gotta say about that. Have a nice week end. (32 scoreless innings, was it? Hooyah!) atf |
| Posted By: Harry Posted On: May 1, 2004 Views: 330 | RE: Continuation of a topic... One of my aunt's husband was in the Korean war, although Turkey had nothing to do with Koreans throughout the history, they sent troops most probably to get aid from the U.S. The squad he was with was ambushed by Koreans and they were taken prisoners. The thing is no one knew exactly what happened to them so they were presumed dead. Back at home they did service in the church (he is Armenian/Christian)for him. After a few years when the war was over they started exchanging prisoners, then they found out he was still alive. I asked him once how he was treated when he was a POW. He said they were treated not bad at all, no torture to say the least. In fact he learnt lot of Korean and English because they were held together with American POWs. I met a group of old Armenians who lived in Paris during WW II. They said, when France was occupied by Germans ( except for Jews ) no one was treated badly, they were surprised to see how disciplined the German soldiers were, they never bothered French citizens. When American troops came, they couldn't believe how American GIs were behaving...they were getting drunk, raping French girls etc. Whenever U.S. Navy visited Istanbul, the first thing soldires would do was "invade" all the brothels and bars, lol. I just read Pentagon hired some civil interogators to question Iraqi POWs. One of them raped and Iraqi young POW. Because he is not a military personnel he is not indicted with any crimes, now lawyers of these 17 U.S. soldiers are trying to shift all the blame on these civil interrogators. Torturing a high ranking officer with important information to make him talk is one thing and peeing on, raping, humiliating ordinary helpless prisoners just for fun is quite another thing. Then again we live in a society in which Catholic priests rape little boys, people pay to get peed/shat on, some people pay Doms to put a strap-on dildo and get raped. Those soldiers are part of this society. If that female soldier started working in a B&D parlor in the U.S. she could make a ton of money and be treated like a Goddess-:) Someday in the near future I may be reminding you of this paragraph. |
| Posted By: Bear Posted On: May 1, 2004 Views: 321 | RE: Continuation of a topic... OK Fonz, now you've got my attention. First, I checked out the writings of your heroes. While I'm very familiar with Pat Buchanan, I haven't read much by Mr. Sobran, although I've seen him on TV several times. I found what they had to say very much on target. I think Mr. Will has written a lot lately along the same lines. Actually, some of their positions regarding global empire building agree with fluffy's hero, Mr. Choamsky. Now that's ironic. I didn't realize that the battle within the Republican party (between the neo-cons and the realists) was becoming as serious as it is. I mean Republicans haven't argued since Nelson Rockefeller got booed off the stage at the convention in 1964. I think Paul O'Neill fired the first real round with his book, "The Price of Loyalty." Here's what I can't stand about the neo-cons, and it's as simple as this. I hate people who act tough and aren't. Maybe that's the FB coach in me, maybe it's my upbringing in a tough town. I think these guys spent their high school and college years holed up in their bedrooms playing RISK for days on end, and now they're doing it for real, with our kids and our tax money. Second, do you really know this guy Kristol? Is it because you've been an annoying listener of his, or do you have a real connection? (I won't take it personally if you don't answer this. If I'm overstepping any bounds, I apologize.) We can always talk via email anyway. |
| Posted By: JSK Posted On: May 1, 2004 Views: 315 | RE: I don't think so! Ok Harry now your generalizing the US Armed forces. I had many uncle's who fought in Korean, Vietnam ... you name it. We lost thousands just like any other. This takes its toll on a person who sees what they've seen and goes through what they are. Most were young "kids" who are now in another country thousands of miles from home. I'm sure there were afew squads of American's getting ****ed drunk etc. but, I doubt raping village women so freely like the way your uncle says. Is your uncle the type that has something against American's in general? Like the Nazi's were so kind? Yeah right. Thats because all the ones who saw their evil side were gased or bombed. Dead men and women don't speak. It all sounds to me as if your saying we didn't have a right to drink and be loud and crazy? Bull **** dude, we fought our asses off and paid a price to save various countries. When you speak of these "animals" your basically talking about my family. I hear stories much different than yours and would rather believe the ones who fought in them. I also had an uncle who was a pow and was killed during WW2. Yeah, real nice to the prisoners? Another uncle told me he and his squad found a houseful of women basically naked and scared. Some nearly dead. The only reason they lived was because the German's found out we were on our way. So after getting shot at for about 12 hours they finally got position on the place. They were set to blow the place up when a woman came running out in a frenzy. She brought some of the troops into this house and showed them the other women that were there. Again we were the animals? During WW2 it was the US that saved France, England basically most of Europe. My wife's grandfather was a sargent during all of this and was and is only greeted by warm handshakes and ass kissing when ever he goes over there . Although he never talks much about it I can assure you the German's were not so kind to most of the towns. When he got there most towns were burned or destroyed by bombs. He said that usually the town's people would parade around them with happyness. Again I'm sure there were some "loaded" soldiers that didn't make us look good and its too bad some people can only remember them for that. So be it. JSK |
| Posted By: Harry Posted On: May 1, 2004 Views: 310 | RE: Continuation of a topic... No JSK my uncle didn't say anything bad about the American soldiers, it was just observation of some eye witnesses in Paris. BTW, my favorite war movie is "Kelly's Heros", because like Kelly (Clint Eastwood)I don't have much respect for authority. Rather than fighting for a few hundred bucks a month, I'd fight to get German Gold Bars just like his battalion did, and if I couldn't beat the enemy Tiger tanks with my Sherman tank, I'd try to make a deal with the enemy and share it with them. |
| Posted By: alfonsothefan Posted On: May 1, 2004 Views: 306 | RE: Bear... For over 20 years I worked in political circles. Yes, I knew of and some of my friends knew Irving Kristol, father of Bill, who comes across as a nice guy but who comes from the same barrel of bad apples as Wolfowitz, Richard Pearl and some of the others. Understand that Pat Buchanan was the first to break off from this group of golf clubing, yachting big buck jack-offs, including such skull & bones luminaries as GB I & GWB Jr. You are quite accurate in saying that Bill & his boyz hate me & my kind, as we aren't of -- nor were we ever -- the 'blue blood' yacht club mentality of the elitists in the 'publican party.' True story: Guy asked me once if I graduated from college. "Why yes" said I, "after I got drafted & sent to Viet-nam...why do you ask?" Wait a while...you were in Viet-nam?! He was incredulous; only 'minorities' and men too "stupid" to go to college (or too poor) could end up in the army of the late 60's. I was not amused. Oh; he's now a chicken hawk... Yes, I have aggitated for the split in the 'party' and wanna be there when it goes down in flames just like the Whigs did 150 years ago. I hold no great admiration for people who "expect us" to "act" a "certain way and to think a certain way." In short, Sobran, a University of Michigan alum (as am I), fired the first shot in this latest volley, as he too is tired of the white, elitist, too-good-to-go-but-send-them crowd. He now calls himself a liberterian classical liberal with a touch of anarchist. Works for me. I'm part of the 'crowd' that wants all Americans of every stripe to understand that the principles we stand for are that we are for America first, that Israel is simply a friend, no more, that the Arabs are our friends, nor more (meaning: we ain't tit dancers and they ain't sugar daddy's), that our nation was founded on the belief that we had natural rights and that life is sacred. We want to back our soldiers, with or w/o the help of the chicken hawks. We want and need a sane immigration policy, not the "Repulican" Daddy Warbucks shtick that treats Mexicans like cheap labor nor the Jackass shtick that treats them as a potential voter/whore. There's a lot more, but you can see it all on teevee this coming year. The elephants better treat us right or they'll have nothing but gummint bosses, oil barons and bigots as a constituency. Along with Bill Kr...oops, ferot, fergot...the boys threatenin' ta go ta the dems. Whoowee...this summer will be interesting. Stay tuned... atf |
| Posted By: Rough Posted On: May 2, 2004 Views: 303 | RE: Continuation of a topic... Things will be VERY interesting, through all the hot, sulty summer months leading into fall and another November election. It goes without saying, between now and then Iraq will either completely fall apart and slip into total anarchy or have a slight semblance of law and order...just enough to hold things together. Have you seen some of Saddam's old buddies they've dusted off to play Marshall Dillon, now? On top of all the international intrique, you can count on every major anti Western terrorist group trying their best to carry out at least one significant strike here in the US. I'm convinced there will be another spectacular attack, sometime before November, carried out either by al Queda or some other group that's been "inspired" by them. Yes folks....VERY strange days we're living in. You couldn't write more surreal stuff in a Clancy novel. Fifty to one hundred years from now, I think historians will definitely look back on this particular moment in time. It's anyone's guess what will really happen over the next six months. I do know it's going to be bloody...throughout the world. And I know that our next election will shape things, for good or ill, and have repercussions felt the world over, for some time to come. It's the most pivotal election we've had here in a very long time. Indeed, in terms of global events, this election may very well be the most important we've ever held. |
| Posted By: Bear Posted On: May 3, 2004 Views: 278 | RE: ATF Well stated Fonz. I'm finding that more and more people in the moderate political zone (i.e. "centrist Republicans" and "conservative Democrats") are complaining more and more about feeling disenfranchised. Political party affiliation is taking on the same characteristics as gang membership: no deference to reason, no need or interest in finding common ground - just pandering, protest and pessimism on the left and avarice, arrogance and adventurism on the right. You're predicting that the Republican party will follow the fate of the Whigs. That's a bold prediction. In the past, Republicans have always managed to hang together. After all, what Republicans fear most is one of "those other people" being elected President. Your prediction is essentially saying that the moderates' distaste for the world conquerers that are now running the party (and the government)is so great that they will actually bolt. I hope you're right, but right now I think it's a lot to hope for. |
| Posted By: Rough Posted On: May 4, 2004 Views: 269 | Moderate Republicans? And their distaste for the tight assed, world conquering, arrogant, Bible thumping, self righteous, ecologically retarded, lying, assholes who are eradicating the seperation of church and state and trounching the First Amendment? Ahh, one can only hope! Everyone better have their lady wraslin' tapes in a lockbox (no pun intended)...because if Bushie gets in again, it's only a matter of time before Ashcroft's "sex police" wage war on ANYTHING vaguley construed as pornographic. DIO/ROUGH 2004 |