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| Posted By: Dionysus Posted On: Oct 12, 2004 Views: 347 | A meaningful world In response to a recent thread written below on the subject of work and leisure, I thought I'd make my own contribution for you lot to discuss. I think what Legion is proposing is a very practical solution to the current fictional reality of arbitrary importances we imbue our lives with. I would guess most people want to work, but unfortunately, for these people 90% of the work they do is unnecessary and meaningless, as whatever they produce they then feel alienated from as it was not produced for themselves or as a common social necessity, but primarily for commercial purposes. There are very few meaningful workers left in this world, the vast majority are waged labourers; people who produce goods or provide services for commercial interest and are given monetary rewards for doing so. There is nothing wrong with that by the way... its called capitalism, and its an entirely legitimate way of living. However, under this system we end up producing far more than what is necessary, working far more hours than we really need to, and very rarely feeling meaningfully connected to the thing we produce. More importantly, this system is highly restrictive of human potential to be far more than merely a species that (if we were to adopt the hypothetical viewpoint of a Martian) spends its entire existence being motivated by an arbitrary non-natural purpose of commercially determined activities. We could be so much more. People would not have to stop working. It's just that with the deconstruction of capitalism our work then becomes for the common good of our communities and global society, and by so doing becomes for the social advancement of ourselves. To give you an idea of what that feels like, remember the feeling you get when you indulge in your favourite hobby activity, i.e. something you freely choose to do because it is meaningful to you. It is meaningful because the activity you are involved in, or what you produce in this hobby is not separate from who you are, your production is not taken away from you, it is your own significant production, it is part of you, and thus it is meaningful to you. This is what a non-capitalist system could potentially offer: meaning to existence once more. Currently we have very little of that. In a non-capitalist system, we also have to produce only that which is necessary for our survival. We thus are rewarded with far more free time to choose what to do... more work, more leisure, or a combination of both, it is up to the individual to choose. The choice of more work allows the person to indulge themselves in further social activity of producing for the common good, and thus feeling even more meaningful in what they are doing. Those who choose intermittent leisure pursuits are then allowed to further themselves more in whatever they choose to do, or merely indulge in an entirely appropriate activity of trivial pursuits, (we have forgotten how to play as a species). Both systems are valid, capitalism and non-capitalism, but I know which one I would choose. Oh, and before you say it, the non-capitalist world is not necessarily the communist world, just a rather spiffingly intelligent attempt at realising how precious life is, and how far better a world we could create if only we were intelligent enough as a species to realize we have the potential to do it. Cheerio then Dionysus |
| Posted By: atf Posted On: Oct 12, 2004 Views: 339 | RE: A meaningful world A quite impressive plea for sanity in a world that often seems "corrupt" (i.e., Food for Oil, etc.). I take the venue that man is, by nature, not so much of a competitive animal as a selfish one. As Ayn Rand noted: "Selfishness is a virtue"... but what are we to make of the unfortunate, the homeless and the like? Well, there are two possibilities here and yes, Stalinism/Leninism is but one form of statism, albeit the final stage of the growth and power of the state over the individual. But the socialist examples of Sweden, Denmark and YES...Britain...all give us pause when we note that the greatest examples of a `market economy` ... Hong Kong, Nationalist China (Formosa), Chile and ...YES...the USA... all are over and above the economies of more state run countries. In short; do we rely on the bureaucrats or do we rely on the largesse of the individual? A longstanding question, to be sure. As I have noted previously, even the left candidate here, John Kerry ( a billionaire), refused to check the box that would have increased his taxes. To `force` the masses to do anything out of the `kindness of their hearts` is, alas, tricky at best and most likely an impossibility. I prefer to live where the people give freely out of kindness and not coersion. Not something that is easily balanced and perhaps an impossbility, but I ask you to remember the words of Michael Corleone in Godfather II to the senator: "We live in same hypocracy senator..." Oh so true.... but that I could end evil and poverty and sprinkle faerie dust of kindness and generosity Field Marshall. Alas, I cannot. We can only live in the freedom that the thug (Kim Il Jung) and the witch doctor (Osama bin Ladn) hate and unite against them. Other than that and some boing examples of micro economic processes perhaps, I have nothing else to offer ... except to say that your `enemy` is not me nor those of us who distrust government and `the masses`... Good question, though.... atf |
| Posted By: legion Posted On: Oct 12, 2004 Views: 326 | RE: A meaningful world 'very practical' eh? Naw, I doubt it. Not the way people think now. They think 'the economy' is the 'real world' Just wait until you get out of school into the 'real world' they are told. Indoctrinated from the age of zero to conform, obey, do what you're told, stand in straight lines, put up yer hand to go to the bathroom, and always, always, respect (defer to) AUTHORITY. Heheh. They aren't told 'economics' is an abstraction...something we invented. Not a hard science, but a bullshiate one, like psychology. Off the gold standard, onto the printed paper standard...HEY, just print more money!. Meaniningless drivel. Gotta 'create' jobs, 'grow the economy'. Right. Endless growth, finite resources. Sure, that'll work. Nobody tells them that. They're all in the Matrix. Sure, a few people took the blue pill, and fully comprehend the true nature of social justice. But, not many. Not nearly enough to make a difference. Ayn Rand? Oh farking please. Nice romance novel, that one. She said a few profound things, I'll give her that. Predicted the whole 'Law enforcement growth industry' - "There's no way to rule a just man. So they create so many 'laws' that nobody can live their lives without breaking the law" (Annie) Not bad, but no Nietzsche, that's for sure. Anyway, I'm not seeing it Dio. Not in our lifetimes. Not without a massive revolution and a complete rethinking of the basic structure and tenets of a just society. Hate to **** on yer parade, but look at the hopelessly corrupt world of Politics. Think anything positive will ever come out of that collection of parasitic thieves and professional liars? I can see clearly, obviously, how it all works. So I just turn it to my advantage. What else is there for us philosopher kings to do? The last thing we want to do is to 'lead'. Yuk. Or work. Heheh. |
| Posted By: Kent Posted On: Oct 13, 2004 Views: 314 | RE: A meaningful world I like your attitude, and I think that what you propose would probably work if everyone in the world felt the same way. I really do intend to respond to your post, and I hope to do so next week. Right now, capitalism has me in a death grip. Kent |
| Posted By: JSK Posted On: Oct 13, 2004 Views: 300 | RE: A meaningless working world Oh in a way I applaud Leege for putting his foot down (and busting it) and saying "I refuse to work for you goons!" Infact, to me it sounds like he doesn't do much of anything, but does what he wants. Good for him. The thing is LOTS of people don't work. Even people with high paying jobs sit back at their desks picking their noses, looking up smut and getting paid a heck of a lot more than some poor smuck digging ditches in 100 degree weather getting 5 bucks an hour. The yuppie jerk doesn't work and makes a living off of it telling others to do their work for them. Then theres the rich kids. They don't need to work either and lots of them do not. Kind of their choice as well, but I applaud them a little less. They sacrifice nothing and still gain in the end usually. By not working or doing anything it means YES you'll have pleanty of free time. Free time to worry about bills, family and other essential things. Ofcourse I don't know Leege's situation in full and I'm sure hes not sitting back while the S H I T hits the fan. You can be darn sure that someone(s) covering his arse. Or he wouldn't be talking so highly about doing nothing. Possibly the man earned it in past achievements:) But, the true way to look at NON workers in this day and age is they are either collecting welfare or scumming of some sort of system. Now some even have earned their right to scum a little here and there. Its when you make a living doing it that hurts others just so you can have the stability to sleep in every day of the week. In life you evolve or desolve. JSK |
| Posted By: legion Posted On: Oct 22, 2004 Views: 271 | RE: A meaningful world Well, I'm a bit older and I worked for a long time at krappy jobs so I don't really need too much more money. I've got enough. Besides, I live rather modestly and deliberately so it doesn't cost very much (see: Thoreau, H.D). But I've already had all that "stuff" (big houses, nice cars, blah blah) so I already experienced enough of it to know it's all meaningless bullshiate to me. Somebody said you own a bunch of stuff, but then your stuff ends up owning you - that's kinda true. I haven't owned a car now for 3 years...good riddance to that ridiculous consumerist treadmill, I jumped off and Im not getting back on ever again. Fark it, it's just not worth it. What Dio is talking about is that all of our values in society are inverted. What's the first thing they yank out of the schools during budget cuts? : Art and music. The two most IMPORTANT things, that make us human, make us who we are and give our lives meaning are the first ones cut. Idiot legislators just don't get it. They think nothing has any value unless it can be sold as a commodity, and that's just wrong. From my Martian perspective I think there is fundamentally something wrong the world when I can walk down the street of Detroit and find somebody who will stick a knife in me for some little pieces of paper with printing on them (money). How did we get so screwed up? The brainless competition! You gotta BE THE BEST! Achieve! Win at all costs! Blah blah. It's all wrong. I love to play piano - I know Im never going to be Keith Emerson, but that DOESN'T MATTER. The only guy I have to get better than is who I am right now. This is the 'artsy' perspective. They all think exactly like this - I know cause I went to art school. All the freaks, the losers, the island of misfit toys, you all knew them in high school, maybe some of you folks WERE 'them'. The ones who never fit in anywhere - they all think exactly the same. That weird guy/girl I dunno what he is, 'Marilyn Manson' (I don't know his music at all) got it exactly right when Micheal Moore interviewed him for the Columbine movie. He said our entire culture is driven by fear and consumption. He gets it. He knows. The artsy freaks always understand. |
| Posted By: legion the greek Posted On: Oct 31, 2004 Views: 265 | RE: A meaningful world oh yah, I don't know if the big problem is 'capitalism' by the way. Fundamentally capitalism is just trade, or barter. Its basic philosophy is that everyone deserves to be paid (or trade) for what they made. But just like any 'ism' or social system we've invented so far, it is prone to greed and corruption. Just like communism, or socialism, or sillyism from the Ministry of Foolish Proclamations, our collective Governments. Aren't they a daisy? We know it isn't 'real' capitalism or 'real' free trade or 'real' democracy by definition, just a sembelance thereof. This is what we got for you, sonny. Sorry. I know it sux, but in some ways it's probably the best 'ism' we've come up with yet - ie: more resistant to corruption. Well, some of us know. Guess why they try to take philosophy and art and music out of the schools? A: Incompatable philosophy. Teaches people how to think instead of what to think. That's why we've got all these Stepford drones walking around of the babbling foolishness TV-generation these days. |