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| Posted By: Katie Posted On: Oct 22, 2002 Views: 950 | I am not a believer of the Big Bang Theory I'm sorry if anyone misunderstood me. To Oliver: I am not a christian who believes that God created the universe through the Big Bang. I know my comment led you to believe that, but it's just a quote that a friend of mine has on his guitar case. : ) It's just a clever comeback that really has no scientific meaning. I know that there are christians who believe that God initiated the Big Bang and then sat back and watched things happen, but I do not believe that theory. I'm with you, Oliver; God created the universe in 6 days and IS STILL a part of the universe. To Keith: What I meant was simply that God created the universe. I do not believe, as stated above, that God initiated the Big Bang and watched things happen. I believe what the Bible teaches and that is that God created the earth in 6 days. Sorry for any misunderstandings, my comment was just a smart-alec comment that I posted in passing, not really expecting a response. If you have any other questions, shoot. |
| Posted By: Katie Posted On: Oct 22, 2002 Views: 950 | Oops I referred to you as Keith...sorry. I thought that was his question, but it was yours. What I meant by the comment was that God spoke and BANG, he formed the earth. With a word God's power was able to form the earth and everything in it! I didn't mean that I believed in the Big Bang theory. |
| Posted By: Oliver Wong Posted On: Oct 23, 2002 Views: 944 | RE: To Katie Hi Katie...thank you very much for your very clear explanation of your stand. Appreciate that! :) And thanks for standing with me...well, which really isnt so much as in agreeing with me, but we both agree with the Truth, which is the Word of God. I've read your 2nd message...it's allright, I did post two messages - the 1st one is an assumption about you, and the 2nd one a question to you. That's why they confused you. Thanks for re-iterating creationism. Do you (or anyone) know about the Answers in Genesis Ministry? |
| Posted By: Katie Posted On: Oct 23, 2002 Views: 942 | Genesis Ministry? I have no idea. Do you know anything about it that you could post to inform me about it? |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Oct 23, 2002 Views: 939 | RE: Big Bang? To Katie & Oliver. Hi, I have been following your discussion with interest but I am a little confused. I can't figure out if you are saying that God created the Universe in 6 days or the Earth in 6 days? Regarding the age of the universe, with estimates as you say at around 13 billion years or so old, what has that do with how long it took to create it? Finally, If as you believe, God created the universe, then where was He when He created it and how did He come into existence? If you claim that God has always existed why am I not allowed to claim that the universe has always existed? I can argue that whatever special powers you attribute to God to allow Him not to need a creator I can attribute to the universe. Not a religious point, a logical one. I am not attacking your faith, just your logic :-) Keith |
| Posted By: Katie Posted On: Oct 23, 2002 Views: 936 | to Keith I do not believe that the earth is 13 billion years old. I don't know where you got that idea (maybe Oliver said it). Despite that, you are right in saying that how long it took to create the world has nothing to do with how old the world is. I believe, as stated before, that the universe was created in 6 days. BUT, I also believe that the world is only between 6 and 7 thousand years old (if you have any question about that, I'd be happy to answer). God created the universe from Heaven (which I believe is a real place--just not on earth). The universe had to have a power to create it, but since God was that power, He did not need a power to create Him, because He is omnipotent (all-powerful) and omnipresent (everywhere at all times). I know that I cannot give you another answer because I do not have one. I don't know how God was just...there. I have no answer for that, nobody does, because nobody knows how God was just there in the beginning, just like those who believe that the universe was just there in the beginning don't know how is was just there. I never told you that you cannot claim that the universe has always existed. You are entitled to that belief, just like I'm entitled to mine. I don't feel attacked, don't worry. I am questioned all the time about why I believe what I do, but who can blame you in a secular world, where everyone you meet has differing points of view? Regarding your logic of the universe just being there from the beginning, I have a few questions. According to what many believe, God is a divine power who created the earth and IS STILL the power of the universe. BUT, you have stated that the universe has always been there, but what power does it have? Humanity continues to destroy the earth through pollution and by using up the resources. If the earth had power, wouldn't it guard against pollution and the destruction that we as humans bring upon it? More questions (woohoo!): Do you believe in evolution? I'm assuming you do. Evolution is the combination of bacteria that has grown over billions of years into plants, animals and humans, am I right? If this is so, shouldn't there have been some dominant energy that pushed the two "specimens" together? Isn't that what science believes? That a 'middle' energy causes reactions to occur? If we take that theory, than, thinking in religious terms, God is that middle energy. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Oct 26, 2002 Views: 929 | RE: Big Bang? Hi Katie, Yes I understand what you are saying. As for the universe being only a few thousand years old, I am aware of that theory, and the Gap theory etc. Just dont agree with it obviously. You ask what power the universe has. In the sense of organising anything, none. It just blindly follows the laws of nature as laid down at the creation of the Big Bang, it does not have a plan, motive or anything else, anymore than an exploding bomb does. Plenty of energy though! In this sense the Earth has no power either, thats why it doesnt protect itself. (Gaia supporters would argue otherwise however) Yes I do believe in the theory of evolution. The theory does not require a middle energy. The chance mixing and combining of chemicals and temperature and pressures etc. will, by chance, produce a successful combination every once in a while that will be better than what came before it, or create something new. The combinations, bacteria, algae, simple cells, etc, that have gained an advantage will prosper, and in this way the better adapted organisms will go on to survive better. This is simple basic survival of the fittest. No middle energy required, they come together by chance and react as the chemicals dictate. I do not ascribe to the idea that the universe needs a power and I do not believe in God. I do though of course respect the right of all to believe in whatever they choose. Bye the way, you say that the world is only between 6 and 7 thousand years old yet you also say Evolution is the combination of bacteria that has grown over billions of years Got me puzzled there! Thanks for your reply, I like to hear other opinions, be damned boring if we all thought the same way. Keith |
| Posted By: Katie Posted On: Oct 29, 2002 Views: 920 | to Keith Sorry I confused you there. I was stating that people believe evolution to be the combination of bacteria and other organisms over billions of years...I never said that I believed it. I believe that the universe is only between 6 and 7 thousand years old (as stated before). I was stating it so that I knew I was accurate about the theory, not that I believed it. Okay, so you say that the universe was just here and organisms combined over time to evolve into what the earth is today? If this is so, than wouldn't this evolution process still be carrying on? Wouldn't one celled organisms continue to evolve and turn into whatever else is after and so on until it becomes a human? I understand that some people believe that this is so, but when is the last time you met someone who did? Where and what are the middle "stage" of the evolution process? If we did evolve from one celled oraganisms that were combined together, than why is there still the species in which we were supposed to evolve from? Sorry about all the question. I'm not interrogating you. And I value your response. |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Oct 30, 2002 Views: 917 | RE: Big Bang? Hi Katie, Thanks for your reply. I have responded under a new topic as this one is getting a bit long. Keith |
| Posted By: Amanda Posted On: Nov 1, 2002 Views: 914 | RE: Big Bang? I am afraid Katie is clearly a religious nutter (is there any other kind ?) who believes not only that "God" created the world in 6 days but also in the Divine Creation theory rather than the theory of evolution - she probably also thinks the world is flat ! To think people still think like this in the 21st century is truly frightening |
| Posted By: William Posted On: Nov 2, 2002 Views: 911 | RE: Big Bang? I agree. To believe today that the Earth is only 6000 years old is crazy. What planet do these people live on? If they can't even understand the basics of evolution then what have they being doing all their lives, reading the bible? Didn't learn much from it did they. |
| Posted By: Shane Posted On: Nov 3, 2002 Views: 908 | RE: RE: Big Bang? Well thats nice... Love the way you last two folks carried on the friendly nature of the conversation. I disagree with what Katie thinks, but I'd rather listen to someone who thinks as she does than the truly ignorant like yourselves. |
| Posted By: Katie Posted On: Nov 3, 2002 Views: 906 | RE: Big Bang? Thank you Shane. I'm sorry Amanda and William if I offended you with my beliefs and opinions. Also, I don't understand why you are being completely rude and intolerant of me. I don't remember ever coming across that way towards you or anyone else on this board. I feel that I have been completely tolerant and respectful towards the beliefs of others on this board. I find it ignorant when people think that Christians are ignorant and sheltered. The world thinks that Christians follow a god blindly, which, maybe some do because of the way they were brought up, but a lot of Christians do follow God with open eyes and understand what the Bible teaches AND what the world offers. We've just chosen God instead, just like you have chosen the world's theories instead of God. I believe that the world is about 6 thousand years old because I feel that it is impossible for the world to be billions and billions of years old. Here is a theory of why I believe what I do: I believe the Bible to be real history, not made up fairy tales; Adam and Eve being the first humans on earth, the intorduction of death inot the world because of the disobiedience to God, and the worldwide flood where only Noah and his family survived. Biblical scientists believe that the bible and true science are in FULL HARMONY. Some Scientists studies have been made to help prove the Creation theory. what they have discovered is that the world population growth rate in recent times is about 2% per year. In reality, the growth rate throughout human history would be about half that number (1%). Wars, disease, famine, etc., have wiped out approximately one third of the population on average every 82 years. Starting with eight people and applying these growth rates since Noah's flood (about 4500 years ago) would give the total human population at just under 6 billion people. However, application on an evolutionary time scale runs into difficulties. Starting with one "couple" just 41 000 years ago would give us a total population os 2 X 10(39). The universe does not have space to hold so many people, therefore the evolutionary theory is not completely without fault. It's difficult to prove any one theory. In conventional science, they go to a lab and try to re-create an event. This is impossible to do with the origin of the world's theories. We cannot create something out of nothing, and we can't "play God" and re-create the universe. The universe was either created by a supreme being (according to the Bible for a purpose), or a random explosion made the universe. You decide for yourself. By the way, I don't believe that the earth is flat. |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Nov 3, 2002 Views: 904 | RE: Big Bang? Hi Katie, Good response to Amanda and William. I personally wouldn't bother with them, they're ignorant. I would like to come back on a point you raised about evolution. You said the theory is flawed because if you take the rate of growth of the population then the universe couldn't hold that many people. I'm afraid that your argument is seriously flawed, you are looking at the sums only, out of context with the real world. In the real world any population can only expand to the size of the resources available to sustain it. Land, food and water supplies are all finite and can only support a finite population, once that point is passed the population starts to die of starvation etc. We can witness this balance in nature all the time. If you are going to pick holes in a theory then you have to know all the theory, not just isolated parts of it. Keith |
| Posted By: Oliver Wong Posted On: Nov 4, 2002 Views: 897 | RE: Big Bang? Hi there Katie and Keith, Wow...I didnt realise that there'd be so many messages since the last time I wrote something :) Well, I did come back to this page (a few times), but only to read... Sorry Katie, for if you remember, I still havent answered your question. I asked (on Oct 23rd): >Do you (or anyone) know about the Answers in >Genesis Ministry? And you replied: >>Subject: Genesis Ministry? >>I have no idea. Do you know anything about it >>that you could post to inform me about it? Okay, now my reply here.....yes, I know that ministry (and have actually heard them speaking to our youth group here before :) By the way, I'm in Australia....just to let you guys know). Answers in Genesis (AiG) an international and interdenominational ministry made up of Bible-believing scientists (a.k.a. creationists) that uphold a 6-day creation (of the universe and everything within it) by God instead of the Darwinian, or evolutionary worldview. Their headquarter is in Australia, but they have offices in Canada, Japan, New Zealand, South Africa, U.K., and U.S.. If you want to visit their website (it's massive, offering a searchable database of many topics), it's at: http://www.answersingenesis.org/ (I hope Keith, you dont mind me putting website URLs here? :) And thank you Katie for answering (on my behalf?) the question that Keith posted to us about the age fo the universe according to evolutionary theory (13 billion years old), and according to creation (about 6000 years). |
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