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TOPIC: A simple challenge

Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: May 18, 2007 Views: 641	RE: A simple challenge That old line that TKers keep trotting out time after time, "You're mind is closed...you need to open your mind" is a very silly argument as it assumes that only those that believe in TK have an open mind and all skeptics do not. Why is it not possible to have an open mind and reach the natural conclusion that TK does not exist because it has never been demonstrated? Show us the proof that TK exists instead of endlessly saying it does. Why don't you just do it? That last question, by the way, is rhetorical, we all know why nobody gives a practical demonstration of TK, never has and never will. Oh dear, saying that means I must have a closed mind. Damn! Just read all the test I carried out on the psi wheel and the straw, in conjunction with ppsociety, then tell me I have a closed mind! No, it is not MY mind that is closed to possibilities.
Posted By: Brian Posted On: May 18, 2007 Views: 638	RE: A simple challenge That's non-sense Thana. Just because there is a possibility of anything doesn't mean telekinesis should be even considered as something real. That's like randomly picking out something extraordinary or weird and saying 'hey that's possible'. Like if I said that I could materialize lightning bolts with my mind and then shoot them out of my hands you'd then say 'hey that's possible'. Even though it defies the laws of science that we know of and that NO ONE has ever seen me do it. It's just my word. But hey, anything is possible in the minds of naive folks with active imaginations who lack the common sense to do serious research and background checks on a subject before accepting it as real or not.
Posted By: Brian Posted On: May 18, 2007 Views: 636	RE: A simple challenge Having the opinion that a mythical phenomena doesn't actually exist isn't about being 'close minded', it's about having the common sense to not believe every fairy tale people tell you is true when those same people never produce any evidence that it exists. I initially delved into research about telekinesis thinking it MIGHT be real, but every thorough information search about TK lead me to the same conclusion.. it's a hoax. It's only talked about and kept alive because of the buzz and myth surrounding the hoax itself.
Posted By: Chester Posted On: May 25, 2007 Views: 622	RE: A simple challenge why are you, mainly brian, being so thick-headed (i couldn't find a better word to say it). thana is on your side. she doesn't believe that TK is plausible because the same reasons that you do. HOWEVER, you neglect to see that she is saying that thinking something doesn't exist, doesn't always mean that, that statement is true. Here is a clear example in science that will demonstrate her point. When the first people on this Earth were learning about the Universe around them, there was no doubt that the Earth was the center of the universe. Now, we obviously see that statement is far from the truth. Another example: If you were to go back in time and tell someone in the 1700's that someday the USA would become one of the most powerful countries in the world (whether good or bad is to be debated elsewhere) and would have obtained nuclear weapons that can destroy so much, there is no doubt that you would be branded as the devil or some other nonsense. However, you can obviously see that the USA is a leading powerful and has weapons that can totally destroy countries. The point is, that you are arguing with one of the most objective people i have seen in this place. That doesn't mean you are wrong nor right, however you are being 'closed-minded.' I myself do not believe that TK is plausible (i hope i can be proven wrong), but i do believe that there is always a chance that it does or will exist. I just find it funny how she is playing devil's advocate and being objective when you, yourself, say that you are trying to be the most objective page about TK. Now please respond to this because i want to here your thoughts on this post, HOWEVER try to be a little more reasonable. Yes there is no proof that is credible (I myself am a heavily scientific guy), but that does not mean it can never exist.
Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: May 25, 2007 Views: 619	RE: A simple challenge There is also no proof that pink elephants exist that can fly by flapping their ears. However, this does not mean I have to have "an open mind" (Tkers favourite expression) that they might exist. In order to think a thing might exist we need a reason, otherwise in order to meet your criteria of having the now famous "open mind" we would have to accept that every proposal dreamed up by every crackpot in the world should be treated as a serious possibility. Therefore let us all keep an "open mind" on the possibility that the following are real: Santa, elves, goblins, fairies, dragons, the tooth fairy, trolls, etc. etc. human levitation, mind reading, the power of crystals to heal, astrology, etc. etc. Unless you can accept that all of them have an equal possibility of being real, then by your own criteria you are being closed minded about the ones you choose to reject. Because I choose to reject TK because there is no evidence it does exist, does that mean I have a closed mind? If you think the answer is yes then I dread to think what nonsense beliefs your head is stuffed full of in order to keep an "open mind". Personally I prefer to be a well read and educated skeptic then a naive fool.
Posted By: Brian Posted On: May 26, 2007 Views: 617	RE: A simple challenge Chester, Thana wasn't being objective, she was being judgemental, and what she was saying didn't make a whole lot of sense. It appeared as if she read maybe two posts from this entire forum and immediatly labeled everyone on both sides as being 'idiotic', that in itself is idiotic. And she was clearly wrong in her comparison of how Anti-Tkers and Pro-Tkers go about arguing. Anyone who looks closely over this forum can see the difference between the two, Pro-Tkers argue with no facts, wishful assumptions and immaturity in their postings, Anti-Tkers verbalize with significantly more objectivity, argue with more clear reasoning, and actually back up their points with 'facts'. Thana accused me of being 'close minded' even after I specifically elaborated on exactly why I came to the conclusions about TK that I did. That's alot more than any Pro-Tkers have ever done. I'm afraid Thana needs to study up on her reading comprehension skills.
Posted By: Brian Posted On: May 26, 2007 Views: 616	RE: A simple challenge Thana was claiming to be 'a neutral voice of reason' on this subject but her words showed her to be one of the most judgemental, hypocritical and non-sensical people i've seen from EITHER side of this debate. She meant well perhaps but she turned out to be her own worse enemy.
Posted By: Brian Posted On: May 26, 2007 Views: 615	RE: RE: A simple challenge And Chester, are you and Thana the same person? Why do either of you say that we MUST except Tk as being a possibility or otherwise you label us as being 'close minded'. The reason why we don't have to consider TK a possibility is because there has never been proof that Tk has ever existed in the first place. If we follow your logic then we'd have to consider EVERY claim by any moron or con artist that has ever made a claim. And consider every fairy tale out there. But we don't, It's wiser to be selective about what things you consider a possibility, TK hasn't earned that right. And secondly, both you and Thana have erred by taking this concept as literally as you have. Any person with common sense knows that 'anything' is possible, nothing can be completely ruled out. What we are saying is that doesn't mean TK is entitled to anymore consideration then it's already been given, we've done the research, it overwhelmingly shows that TK is a hoax, why occupy any valuable brain space considering Tk as a possibility when there's better things to take seriously.
Posted By: Brian Posted On: May 26, 2007 Views: 613	RE: A simple challenge And lastly.. fussing over whether someone 'considers TK a possibility' is completely useless and irrelevant to the issue. Possibilities mean little, it doesn't change the fact of whether IT exists or not. Evidence or LACK of evidence is what are important. LIke the saying goes.. 'Wish in one hand and sh*t in the other and see which one fills up first.'
Posted By: Chester Posted On: May 26, 2007 Views: 606	RE: A simple challenge i admit i haven't read this whole forum and i haven't read all of the replys i got, but to: Keith Mayes (idk why i like that name so much btw): i am not saying every crackpot should be acknowledged by believing their theory is true, however the fact of you saying that if we have no reason to believe is as crazy as saying we don't have a reason to believe...yes there has not been any person to be acknowledged to have TK because they have been frauds. and the problem with you is that whenever someone uses the phrase open-mind/close-mind you typically assume the definition by which you say TK-ers use. HOWEVER if you have taken notice, i am not pro-tk, but i would like to be proven wrong and, hell, i know you would like to be proven wrong too. To get back to the point, i am not using open-mind in the context as you take it every time. I am using it as having an objective point of view. Thana has come the closest to achieving this however. To be honest i don't know every single thing that you have said on this forum and such, but there comes a time to say ok maybe..or to at least hope since it would be incredibly cool. THAT DOESN'T MEAN I THINK IT EXISTS. It has come a time to just grow up....yes you have made your points endless amounts of time, but you have not made any more progress than the same points even though they are some of the best. so start making some more discoveries towards science to disprove the frauds that claim they have TK. I am on your side and highly doubt there is any TK, but some part of me says i just hope. Now, sorry to be repetitive, but when i say open-mind i say it as meaning that nothing is impossible. It's just if you were to go back in time (hypothetically speaking to clarify since you will probably accuse me of believing in time travel) and said to the ancient Romans, "the earth is not the center of the universe," you would surely branded an outcast and/or killed. IT COMES DOWN TO THIS: EVEN IF THERE IS SOME SCIENTIFIC DATA 'DISPROVING' SOMETHING, THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT IS NO DOUBT NON-EXISTANT if you want an example, take the ocean. What if a person was to collect things from the ocean, lets say, about 20 times. Now for all those 20 times he obtained nothing, but water and bits of plants, that doesn't mean there is no fish in the ocean. This whole question revolves around 'WHAT IF.' that's why it's so damn difficult for some of you (not solely brian and keith) to see the other's point of view. I am neither Anti-TK NOR Pro-TK. I just don't know. but on this forum from the things i have seen, it has been the same type of arguing. The Anti's say that this forum proves that TK doesn't exist because it disproved two tricks and that some sort of prize has not yet been accepted. The Pro's are even worse and state random garbage that is easily contradicted by a future post. NEITHER OF THE SIDES can argue this. yes 100 years or so of this has been going on as someone stated, BUT and i say BUT the world has been around for about 4.5 BILLION YEARS and there has been planets, stars, etc. that have been around longer. HUMANS have not even been around for a 10th of this time. To say that TK exists or not exists is just ignorant at this time because there is not enough proof for either side. YES THE ANTI-TK'ers have more proof weighing in on their side however one person in the future can change everything. Even you Anti's should know that in a lab experiment you can neither prove or disprove a certain theory because it has only been one test. Just think about that.... and now like Thana am going to leave this forum, NOT THAT I AM PRO-TK, BUT BECAUSE i am tired of dealing with people that can not view the other side or realize that it has not been enough time or evidence to prove either side. It is an endless debate and can only be settled by someone saying and proving that they have TK under controlled experiments or someone saying that humans have the lack of intelligence to access a certain part of their mind and blah blah blah. What you don't see is that at the moment, Tk doesn't exist, however that could change in 1, 10, 100, etc. years. What exists and doesn't exists is the perception of a person. When you are a kid you believe in Santa, the tooth-fairy, elves, dwarves, dragons, etc. etc. (and if you didn't i am sorry for your childhood).
Posted By: Chester Posted On: May 26, 2007 Views: 604	RE: A simple challenge sorry i just read Brian's post quickly and i would like to answer that me and Thana are not the same person. We never said you MUST believe that there is a possibility and such, we are just saying that you two haven't really justified your reasons too. yes you have those two experiments and i say congratulations to that, but why don't you do more. why stop there? and lastly, stop putting words in our mouths. Thana was not trying to be the voice of reason in everything, she can't she is just merely human as are all of us. She was trying to be the "neutral voice of reason" in this debate; not everything. well i am hoping one of these sides wins so this, for lack of a better term, stupid debate can be over. honestly so what if a person believe or not believes. it's their own mind and they have a right to think whatever they want, and please don't take that as a solely pro-tk side, or anti-tk side. That is what Thana was trying to get at. Unless someone on this forum says they are ANTI-TK all the way, TK doesn't exist and it's never going to exist, or something, you (keith and brian) seem they are pro-TK....and i am sure the same thing with you Pro-Tkers. Stop fighting against everyone and try to compromise. HERE's AN IDEA: why don't you pro-tk'ers and anti-tk'ers benefit each other?? you pro-tk'ers come up with new experiments and stuff and then the anti's try to explain scientifically why that occurred....if you can't explain it, it doesn't mean that TK exists, but is starts to balance the weight of evidence....
Posted By: Brian Posted On: May 26, 2007 Views: 598	RE: RE: A simple challenge Chester, why does it matter if Tk is possible? Alot of things are possible. That doesn't mean we should seriously consider everyone of them to be a possibility until there's atleast ONE piece of logical evidence to suggest it's something other than just a hoax. There is none for TK and there never has been. It's not about being close minded, it's about being sensible and open to the facts of the situation. If I had to decide who was really 'close minded' i'd say it's people like you and Thana for accusing everyone else in this debate of being close minded but yourselves. It's sensible for Anti-Tkers, like myself and Keith, to say the things we do, and we HAVE backed up and explained are reasons why we don't 'believe' in TK and why we think it's a hoax. Anything is possible in the world, but nothing is gained by simply stating that fact. It's neither here nor there. But that doesn't mean people like Keith and myself don't 'listen' to the other side of the debate, the exact opposite. Pro Tkers rarely say anything logical or valuable in regards to this debate, and I'm not generalizing here, they literally, never do. But that doesn't mean it's stupid to debate them, that's the whole purpose of debate. To express your points of view on an issue, not every side can be in the right though. And if you think this is 'close minded' for me to say that then you're wrong.. what IS wrong is to necessarily assume every debate has equal sides. I hope one day some Pro Tkers will actually produce some argument that opens new light on this situation, so far, they havent. I firmly believe the reason why is because TK doesn't exist. Prove me wrong. Taking a position on this issue doesn't make us 'close minded' it just means we have an opinion based on the facts of the subject. (Hopefully that's the reason atleast, i'm sure others form opinions based on alot less.) And why would you tell us to 'disprove' the existence of TK? That's what Pro Tkers always say and it STILL just as pointless to suggest. If TK doesn't exist, which is ofcourse a possibility, then disproving it would be impossible, because there is nothing to disprove. 'Where' is the non-evidence of its existence? It's already in plain sight. Understand? The only thing that can be proven is if it TK DOES exist. And that's up to neutral scientists or even Pro Tkers to prove. They haven't been able to. It's a hoax. When any evidence is found to suggest otherwise then let me know and I'll change my position, until then, It's a hoax. The fact that Tk is a possibility is meaningless, whoopty doo! Show us it actually exists.
Posted By: Brian Posted On: May 26, 2007 Views: 597	RE: A simple challenge And I never said that Thana was attempting to be 'The voice of reason FOR EVERYTHING' I simply said she was trying to be the 'Neutral voice of reason' in this debate. But she failed because she inaccurately represented the nature of this debate and the participants in them to begin with. If you want to be the 'voice of reason' on an issue atleast get your facts straight before you begin criticizing others for their behavior.
Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: May 27, 2007 Views: 594	RE: A simple challenge Chester, As you can see, I take a scientific and logical stance on any issues. I have done a great deal of research and testing for TK and found nothing to support it. If I had a closed mind on the subject I would have just said it didn't exist and not bothered with the research and tests. To accuse me of having a closed mind is clearly false. I have to say that in my experience I have rarely met such a closed minded bunch as those that believe in TK, nothing will even make them consider the possibility they are wrong. They are very closed minded, and although its not considered pc to say it, they are very often young and very dumb, in general.
Posted By: Brian Posted On: May 27, 2007 Views: 591	RE: A simple challenge I agree with Keith. Quit asserting that 'both sides' of this debate are equally idiotic. That's clearly not the situation. And try to back up your accusations with real common sense and facts the next time, i'm talking to Chester and Thana specifically. And Like i said, the fact that TK is a possibility is meaningless in regards to this debate. Any phenomena, real or fiction, cannot be disproven beyond a scientific certainty, thus it's up to those with a vested interested to prove its existence to do so. So far they haven't. Put up or shut up.

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