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| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Jan 21, 2003 Views: 961 | RE: No infinities Hi Sherri, I will try and avoid comparing infinity in the 'real' world with perception, as perception is merely how we experience the real world. It is of course impossible for us to compare our perceptions, we have no common 'benchmark' that we can agree on to use as a means of comparison. We can say for example the the colour blue is in the electromagnetic radiation spectrum at around 380 - 750 nanometres, but cannot describe to each other the colour that we see. In the real world however, we can perform experiments, make measurements, and produce results that we can all agree on. It is in this real and measurable world that I argue that infinity does not exist, but in the abstract, such as mathematics, it does. My argument is that mathematics only exists in our thoughts, as does infinity. The bigger argument is if the Universe really exists outside of our heads, as in our minds is the only way that we are able to experience it. It is possible that the Universe is nothing more than a construct of our minds, a sort of virtual reality of our own making. Keith |
| Posted By: C. Rofe Posted On: Jan 28, 2003 Views: 959 | RE: No infinities Okay, this is just an idea. What if we are moving in the same position in space? Okay, i'll explain it differently; simply: You're driving a car. You are in the car. You are no moving, with respect to the car. You are in the same position in space (the car). Another example could be running on a treadmill or something. You are moving in that position. You yourself are not doing any work. You position is. You are not moving, your position in space is. You are running no where, but your position is. Now, consider that all objects (whatever they may be), moving in their same positions in space. Since a position has no dimensions, this may mean that all object are moving in the same spot. Walk from one pot to another may be like walking nowhere and doing nothing. Walking forever could be a infinite concept. I dont like the idea probabilities of chance. Reality seems to organised to be chaotic. Does anyone know anything about the quantum sciences? i am currently grappling with two thoughts: Infinity could be equivalent to nothing and finite concepts could be the result of the existence of infinite ones. i am beginning to think that there's no such thing as size. How can the universe have a "size". The universe meaning "all that is...ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING"? My view: nonsense. How can something NOT go on forever?? Coin tossing? You can know the outcome, but you cant change it. The act of changing it is the outcome, if so. Infinity...very good topic. |
| Posted By: C. Rofe Posted On: Jan 28, 2003 Views: 958 | RE: No infinities If it's possible it's virtual, then that can further imply that it doesn't exist!? The fact that we cannot make EXACT measurements in reality (exact to the last decimal), to me also indicates the possibility of infinity existing. |
| Posted By: Sherri Posted On: Jan 28, 2003 Views: 957 | RE: No infinities Oh my, a new thought... can anything "real" be finite? Keith says: "numbers go on for ever, but numbers are not real, they are abstract. I cannot imagine anything 'real' that we could apply an infinite number to." Keith says: "I also only refer to 'real' things that are measurable, and consciousness cannot be 'counted' even though it is through consciousness that we perceive reality." Okay, are plants real? You see smell taste touch and can even hear plants. Nothing abstract there. Now I would make a case that plants and their inherent characteristics are infinite. Like people... While it would appear that there are measurable recombinations of DNA and such, we are witness time and again to variations in growing plants based on how and where they are grown, and what the weather and the sunspots and all sorts of things are doing at any given time. What about twins? In form and feature, face and limb, but they are not the same. If clones actually are a part of "natural" law, will they grow to have unique differences? Heck, it would appear we're a bunch of scotch and wine drinkers here, think of all that goes into the alchemy of producing these distinctive beverages, and having a "good year". What about snowflakes? Is there a predictable measurement of how many different ways a snowflake will crystallize? I've always heard that two snowflakes are never alike. The physical state of water is never constant unless its environment is constant, and that is not natural. You refer to diamonds in your piece, but were those diamond atoms or carbon atoms always carbon atoms? Is there a constant number of carbon atoms at any given time, for an infinite measure of time? Here's a rather engaging take on snowflakes: http://www.wellnessgoods.com/messages.asp I would propose that anything immutable is "not real". Because it would defy the immutable qualities of life and the dynamic of nature. Okay, I'd like to know if this is a logical statement. This site has a menu of articles that you guys should enjoy, perhaps "Universe of Infinite Variety" by H R Opdenberg would be a good start to explore the infinite nature of our creation: http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/science/sc-selec.htm I recognize that this steps a little outside of the context to which Keith was referring, which I think is a very provocative demonstration that reality is simply not logical. As Corson said: "I will agree that our universe is finite-- But only in a imaginary way -- as arbitrary as lines we draw on a map of the world..." Okay wait a minute, I just got back from a trip, and from the airplane the maps look pretty realistic. Hey man, you gotta draw a line somewhere. Sincerely, Sherri |
| Posted By: Carl Rofe Posted On: Jan 29, 2003 Views: 954 | RE: No infinities Thought: The things we experience are the effects of our own existence (or non-existence) on us. Whether or not we could determine the existence of existence through our own experiences of it. |
| Posted By: Sherri Posted On: Jan 30, 2003 Views: 952 | RE: No infinities I feel silly, I have been replying to posts I didn't know were here, because I couldn't find this new page with comments from January 21st on. Thanks for the clarification, Keith, that your argument is that mathematics only exists in our thoughts, as does infinity. And, C. Rofe, I appreciate your example of the car and our relative experience... would like to go back to two points you make: "Reality seems too organized to be chaotic." The concept of reality being organized, perhaps, is an argument that our *perceptions* organize our experience for us. Our senses. What becomes our program, per se, or how we process and catagorize our memories of a moment. It is impossible to recall a memory without something triggering it, and that is through our senses. You read an equation and your memories of what numbers mean engage in processing and computing that equation. You smell something and it invokes memories that are linked to that fragrance. "How can something NOT go on forever." The eternal question... what happens when I die, and no longer have my body and senses to experience life? Are our thoughts real? Is consciousness *real*, do they have energy, is it measurable, does it influence our environment, what is its substance. Can anything *real* be finite? Is *logic* a figment of our imagination? Sincerely, Sherri |
| Posted By: Al Nigro Posted On: Jan 30, 2003 Views: 949 | RE: No infinities Sherri, Thats funny.I did the same thing, I got the email but couldent find the page were the posts were going.Its kind of ironic, we are taking about such compalcated subjects but cant seem to navagate this page. Al |
| Posted By: C. Rofe Posted On: Jan 30, 2003 Views: 944 | RE: No infinities We perceive reality to exists through our senses. We currently have no other way of doing so. Question: "Why does energy (i mean everything) exist?" If it doesn't exist, how come we "feel" we are experiencing "something" we refer to as reality? Why does reality "need" to exist? What is the point of having energy? Why should it exist? So we can? Why? Why SHOULD we exist? Why does the universe "have" to exist? What is the point of it existing? What does it matter if it doesn't? Then we don't? So what? WHO cares? There is nothing, we know of to "care" whether or not we exist! So why should we make the assumption we do and that something does care? Emotion/psychology is of "life". So what? What does it matter if life doesn't exist? We sense it! So what? That doesn't mean it IS! Why do we make the assumption that logic is always right? What does it matter? I don't care if it's wrong sometimes? You can't makes sense of something unless you use illogical ideas? TUFF! You can only use your 5-6 (whatever) senses? TUFF!!! You don't like some ideas? TUFF!!! You've just copped the reality of the situation? TUFFF! Welcome to OUR reality! Reality sucks? hmhm...tuff! Just to clarify. Now back to infinity... I have a rather..umm..obvious question? What's the distance between each side of you computer monitor? very EXACTLY? If you can't, i'm suggesting there is none. You senses deceive you perhaps. By measuring it you change it! But in turn it changes any way, because of light, for example, though there's far more to it than that. What to do with infinity? I'm suggesting the mesurement itself is infinite (both the act of doing it AND it). If you read what's above, you will understand that you can't automatically dismiss this. |
| Posted By: Sherri Posted On: Jan 30, 2003 Views: 938 | RE: No infinities Carl writes..."There is nothing, we know of, to "care" whether or not we exist!" nnnnggghhhtt. that is the weakest link. goodbye... Sorry Carl, can't accept that with 6 billion teaming people sensing and experiencing on the planet here, who care tremendously much about all that is, regardless of how it is measured. Okay, I cannot really figure out how to measure my computer moniter, especially if I want to encompass the dimensions of experience that it transports me to. Lol, its like Alice and the Looking Glass. Everybody hug your computer, and please be patient with us gremlins lurking in the fontland of Ariel. Sincerely, Sherri |
| Posted By: Al Nigro Posted On: Jan 30, 2003 Views: 936 | RE: No infinities I know I keep flip flopping on this subject but thats all about keeping an open mind. Im going back a ways when my mind was more on the science of probability and chance. For the last 15 years I have been in the slot machine industry first as an electronics technician then doing board work then helping to test and develop software and now behind a desk for a slot machine manufacturing company. We use something called a random generator. This is software with so many different out comes that when you play the slot game the outcome becomes random. Or is it? Before the game goes on the casino floor the state must check to see if all is legal with the program. They hook this up to a test unit and after a week or so of 24 hours a day testing of all the different possibilities they give it the ok. Now is this software infinite? No, why? Because it can be checked. But when playing the game it takes on a life of its own and to the player it feels random and infinite. So is it only infinite if we can not measure it? Im rethinking what I said about perception. Al |
| Posted By: Sherri Posted On: Jan 30, 2003 Views: 934 | RE: No infinities Are we counting cards again? There are only 52 cards in a deck, I was talking about the infinite variability of an organism in an infinitely changing universe. Al says: "But when playing the game it takes on a life of its own and to the player it feels random and infinite. " LOL, if you can say that about 52 cards then I rest my case. Sincerely, Sherri |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Jan 31, 2003 Views: 933 | RE: No infinities Carl, Please explain why, if I am unable to give an exact measurement of my monitor, it means it does not exist, because it has no measurement? What is the connection? How precise a measurement do you want? A millionth of an inch? A billionth? What and why? Its there, its real, the precise size of it does not affect its reality. How does the act of measurement change it? This is confusing the uncertainty principle of quantum mechanics with classical theory. The monitor is not a quantum particle, but obeys the laws of relativity. My measuring of it makes no changes to it at all, unless I squash it of course. You should know that it is impossible to measure the precise size of any object, to do that you would have to nominate exactly which atoms you will use as your base start and end points, and even then, as they are in motion, that will not do either so its impossible. But the monitor exists and there is nothing about it that is infinite! How can the measurement itself be infinite? And the act of doing it? It cannot be measured infinitely , as you suggest, because that would require it exists in the same state for an infinite period of time, which is of course impossible. Please clarify what you mean, because as it stands what you are saying is clearly nonsense |
| Posted By: Carl Rofe Posted On: Jan 31, 2003 Views: 924 | RE: No infinities I'm implying you can't measure it, because there's nothing to measure, because you shouldn't take reality for granted jut because you sense it when your senses could be wrong. Oh and Sherri, i honestly don't care if there are 6 billion other creatures like us on this earth. I don't care if they have feelings or anything. They meant to! That's default! I don't care if were alone, so what? What are we going to do about it, eh!? Invent aliens...boring! If it's true, then tuff luck to all of us, live with it! Or do you still have that hideous "urge"? I hate a belief urge! |
| Posted By: Sherri Posted On: Jan 31, 2003 Views: 921 | RE: No infinities The "belief urge"... why yes, quite a case of it. It sure seems to get around, mutates a lot too so it can be pretty hard to recognize. How observant of you, no doubt you've experienced the same bug. Creeps up on you unawares, right? Sounds like you might have a touch of it too, one of the first symptoms is when you recognize that beliefs get under your skin and bother you. The most obvious cases are measured with a glass of water, some will say it is "half full" and the other will say it is "half empty". The "half full" types experience quite cluttered realities and seem to find meaning in everything, dream in color even and sometimes can't remember the difference between what they did and what they dreamt. The "half empty" types streamline their realities in the dream state, usually of black slate chalkboards, lots of white chalk and stainless walls, they make sure and pressure wash it all down before waking up. My guess is that I'm in the former type, you're in the latter. Same amount of water in the glass though, no doubt you've got it as bad as I do. I hear it's incurable, but switching back and forth between realities happens pretty regularly once you've caught the bug. Thanks for asking, so nice of you to care! Sincerely, Sherri |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Feb 1, 2003 Views: 919 | RE: No infinities Hi Carl, So the reason I am unable to measure the precise size of my monitor is because it may not be there? This is the same monitor that you previously said will change size when I measure it, is infinite in size because it can't be measured, and light will also change its size. That's amazing, all those changes taking place, and me using it right now, and it may not even exist! So you are claiming my monitor may not exist but is infinite in size. I see. Carl, you are talking a total load of complete and utter crap. I don't know what your problem is, you started out by informing us all that you 'have immense amounts of brain power". Its time you took a reality check, you are nothing but a jerk, get used to it and stop trying to kid on you are so smart, you are in fact quite dumb. Get it super brain? |
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