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| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Dec 14, 2004 Views: 3689 | Theory for TK proven! Sorry, that should read "Theory for TK proven WRONG!" What a silly omission on my part! Dear oh dear. Bet that upsets some of you, Sorry! This is back to my favourite TK site again, don't you just love it. http://ppsociety.com It has a section "TK & Science". (not often you see those two words together!) The major contributor is Paranoid Jester. He has written some articles on how he believes TK works. There is some really deeply dippy Mickey Mouse home grown stuff in there, and because it makes such a convoluted jargon packed read, with some long words thrown in, the young kids think it must be true. Ho ho ho. They have NO IDEA of what is being said. None at all! Its pure crap! They just don't know enough to know it's crap. I said it was a heap of garbage and full of errors and Paranoid Jester asked me to point out even just one error. I decided to take him up on his total misunderstanding of Quantum Mechanics, and have proved him wrong on two points. As it happens these points are central to his argument. Oh dear, what a shame, another TK theory destroyed, yet again. So what does he do? He says I have 'an attitude' problem because I refuse to explain his other errors. Why should I? It's his stupid article, not mine. You can read it all under the thread on this board "TK & Science". Judge for yourself who has an attitude problem! Instead of acknowledging his errors, which cannot now be denied, he just comes up with more equally daft points. This could go on for pages and pages. No thanks, better things to do. My point is this. If that stupid site had any merit it would allow my remarks, as posted here, to be posted on their site, and any other comments from others who do not agree. But only postings that agree with TK are allowed... "This site is sooo cool Fidex, TK is real and you are wonderful ...." Reading those kids postings makes you want to puke. The funny thing is PJ actually asks on his site 'Any comments anyone?" What is the point of that? Can someone please explain? Only favourable TK comments are allowed! That site has to be a portal to another universe! Ask yourself this. Why do I allow any challenge, comment, remark, opinion, thought, daft or comical entry, on my site without restriction? Why is the TK site so heavily restricted? Who do you think has got something to hide? CORRECT. Sorry, no prizes given for the right answer, just the satisfaction of knowing that it only takes a little common sense and and open mind and attitude to come to the correct conclusion. TK DOES NOT EXIST. You are all entitled to have your say of course. No, you dont have to agree with me. Yes, you can say whatever you like. Yes, you are even allowed to say TK does exist! |
| Posted By: Paranoid Jester Posted On: Dec 14, 2004 Views: 3680 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Alright, just a minute... First of all, I apologize for my comments. Seriously, I really do. Secondly, I admit that I was wrong about the Aharonov-Bohm effect and the photon situations. I will remove the articles when I get a chance and start again with something different. I seriously did, however, want to have a friendly conversation about quantum mechanics though... if your still interested. I do have to say this much though... My opinion on psi phenomenon still remains unchanged... And if it is fake like you say, then I would like to do scientific tests and research data to know for certain WHY it is fake. I will continue my research... but will this time make sure that all my data is verified by qualified scientists. Seriously, Keith, I didn't mean to ride roughshot over you shoulder like that. No hard feelings? |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Dec 15, 2004 Views: 3660 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Hi there PJ, First of all please understand that no matter what comments appear on my message board, no matter how much I may be insulted, what I may be called, or what replies I may give, do not think for one minute that I take any of it personally. It's just a message board. As such it's meant to be entertaining, a bit of fun, a heated debate, a friendly discussion, perhaps even educational, a way to occupy a few minutes. Whatever. Personal it isnt. Your apology is unnecessary but accepted in good faith. I hope that I have not offended you and likewise apologise if I have. Its only meant to be a bit of fun! I like the way you admit to having been wrong in your thinking about Quantum Mechanics. It takes a big person to admit they were wrong. Interestingly, a man for whom I have the greatest of respect - Stephen Hawking - has more than once publicly admitted to having made a mistake. We all make mistakes. I am happy for us to continue our discussion. I appreciate that you are trying very hard to find a sound scientific theory that will explain how TK could work. If I was in your shoes I think perhaps I would also look to QM for as a possible starting point for an explanation. But I think that may be a dead end because it is only applicable to the quantum world. There may be a way around it, perhaps....... Lets both accept that as far as TK is concerned we are firmly entrenched in opposite camps. That aside, I would be happy to work with you in looking for possible explanations, as long as they are based on sound firmly established scientific principles. I cant argue about any para-normal stuff because that is not my area, as you already know. I am even willing to devote a web page on your thoughts as a direct link from my main page if you wish, all in the interests of a fair balance of views. If we are adult about this and accept we have a difference of opinion, I would be happy to set aside my pre-conceived ideas and discuss the matter in a non-confrontational way. Over to you. Keith |
| Posted By: Paranoid Jester Posted On: Dec 15, 2004 Views: 3654 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Well I do sincerely thank you very much. You may be right, TK may be false... I mean, I don't know. As of which, however, I would like to perform various experiments and tests to know what we really do have here. I have only been studying psi phenomenon and things in the area of QM for 5 months. So I have MUCH to learn. And your right, we are in opposite camps. You have your views and I have mine. When it comes to science, we start out with a belief. Then we build a scientific model on top of that belief... you know the rest. I really do SINCERELY thank you for pointing out where my errors were. I have removed those articles from the site and I will start again with something different. And if my next basis is wrong too... well, time will tell where I go with everything from there. I wish you all the best in selling your book and it has been a pleasure to meet you. Regards PJ |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Dec 15, 2004 Views: 3616 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Hi PJ, I have for some time been trying to think up a simple and easy to do experiment that anyone could do at home that would demonstrate for sure if TK was at work or not. Okay, I accept that if it doesn't work it doesn't prove TK does not exist. It is of course impossible to prove a thing does not exist. But how to prove it does? How can we devise an experiment to test a hypothesis when we do not have any hypothesis as to how it could work? All we can do is ask people to demonstrate it. Even then we have to be careful in what we are prepared to accept as proof. For example. From what I have read on ppsociety forums the vast majority who believe they have TK believe it because of the psi wheel. They attribute any small movement it makes as a demonstration of their TK abilities, even though it is uncovered and the slightest air current will move it. I notice that when it is covered it is a very different story, many say that is too difficult for them. That does not surprise me of course. However, even if covered, if the hands are placed near it - as they usually are - static electricity could move the paper - or foil - psi wheel. Even if the hands are not placed near enough for static to affect the psi wheel, if it does move is that proof it was moved by TK? No. On a scientific basis we could only say it moved, we would not have any evidence as to what moved it. If we wanted to take that experiment as a step towards proving the hypothesis that it was TK we would need more evidence. We could for example ask that the practitioner say in advance which direction it would move. If that was successfully carried out for a number of times and was well above statistical guesswork, that could perhaps also be taken as a step forward. So far the best idea I have come up with is this. Use a paper psi wheel, place it on a fluffy towel and cover it with an upturned transparent kitchen mixing bowl, such as Pyrex. clear plastic or glass. The fluffy towel will seal the base against any chance of air currents getting in. Keep hands well away and see what happens. If the psi wheel moves, I would take that as a good start to proving TK. However, if the psi wheel moved anyway, regardless if you were trying to move it, or even out of the house, then we would need to investigate what else could be moving it. Not easy is it? Any ideas? |
| Posted By: Paranoid Jester Posted On: Dec 15, 2004 Views: 3605 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Well I think the absolute simplest way to prove TK would be to roll a plastic pen across a table after it has been sitting there untouched for hours and obviously hasn't moved. The pen is sealed in a gerbil-like glass case and the table it's on is perfectly balanced on all sides - No metal in the pen for magentic reasons. If someone's able to make that pen roll back and forth under such conditions... well, let's just say we're not looking at something that naturally happens all by itself. No... an uncovered psiwheel is obviously out of the question. Now I myself have moved an aluminum psiwheel under a plastic CD case dome twice. How did I do it? I myself am still trying to figure that out. "Static?", I said. Well it couldn't have been. I took 5 minutes almost with my hands about an inch next to the dome not touching or vibrating the dome or table - thinking about it wanting to move - and then it all of a sudden it started to slowly rotate the way I wanted it to. I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how static would take 5 minutes to activate itself in my hands. The first time it rotated 90 degrees - and then I stopped because I was in shock. The second time 360 degrees - and then stopped because I was out of breath and my head hurt. I have been going crazy trying to figure out WHAT JUST HAPPENED HERE?? Now understand this, I am still not fully convinced that what I did was true TK. I'm trying to find EVERY possible explanation I can that would have been natural for this to happen. No, by all means. We want to see TK, let's see the pen roll across the table with no strings attached (no pun intended). Forget about the borderline 1-2% above random chance baloney. Let's just see it !! You know? That's my explanation as to what leads us to possible proof down the road. Can ANYONE do TK? Well, your gonna have to get back to me on that one. Personally, at the moment, my answer would be no simply because I'm not convinced yet that everyone has all of the factors running at once. What are the factors? Well that's what I'm trying to find out... what in science can lead us to an explanation totally outside of supernatural, mystical intervention. I'll keep you informed of what I can learn. Let's just once and for all accept that we live in a universe governed by numbers and mathmatics. Show me the science first... THEN show me what the mystics have been doing with it for all these centuries. That's what I always say. |
| Posted By: rob Posted On: Dec 15, 2004 Views: 3602 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Hey pj and keith, would spinning a paritally balanced 7 inch foil flat on a desk with no possible (strong) air currents be good enough proof? Of course static and heat also being canceled would too be important. so? |
| Posted By: Paranoid Jester Posted On: Dec 15, 2004 Views: 3597 | RE: Theory for TK proven! I would say possibly yes if one of two things were the case: #1 the individual was CONSISTENTLY able to do it intentionally or unintentionally where, like you said, all factors of wind, static, etc. were thoroughly ruled out. #2 We have some scientific basis for TK where the factors that have been discovered for TK to take place have been all identified and the person displays all the pertinent evidence for them - thus displaying the factors (with all the evidence for them) in action. That's my answer, anyway. |
| Posted By: Dark_Mage Posted On: Dec 15, 2004 Views: 3584 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Alright, I have one question Keith...have you done any experiments yourself trying to disprove telekinesis? Im just saying it isnt that hard for someone to read PJ's theories. (for n00bs) If there is something you dont understand, just ask PJ or look it up in the dictionary if there is a big word. also you do pose good facts about those articles that i didnt see....anywho just how is telekinesis not in existance? All im going to tell you is that you have to conduct your own experiments to disprove telekinetic abilities. Also you should try writing down any daa you find. I have a relative (mom) and she thinks that telekinetic abilities aren't possible. I've shown her countless times how telekinetic abilities work and ive shown her upfront my abilities. She doesnt know how it works but doesnt think it is real. She has felt my energy pull out her energy but she thinks it is just magic. Yeah well all im saying you dont have to impose your negative energy here. ~Dark_Mage |
| Posted By: Anonymous but concerned PPS Members Posted On: Dec 16, 2004 Views: 3565 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Dark_Mage you idiot You, that fluffy nick of yours, and your juvenile attitude are going to totally discredit us. We want Mayes to WORK WITH US, not write us off as delusional pubescents because you called him a "n00b" and told him to look up the big words in a dictionary. LEAVE THE CORRESPONDENCE TO JESTER AND MAYES. To Jester and Mayes, we are glad to see the onset of willingness to work together in a scientific manner - we certainly need some way to determine what the causes of these anomalies are, in as scientific and measurable a way as possible. We hope this discussion leads to a move in that direction. After all, despite our diffences of opinion, we both are simply after the same thing - to determine what causes these anomalies - known physical phenomena, or otherwise |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Dec 16, 2004 Views: 3561 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Hi there PJ, I am glad that we are having this conversation and I appreciate your input. I have found it very difficult to find anyone who believes in TK and who is prepared/able to discuss it in a rational manner. Please read on, you are going to love this posting!!!! Hi there Rob, I agree with PJ. It would have to be repeated with all other possible factors causing the movement to be ruled out. Hi there Dark_Mage Have I done any TK experiments? Well, to be honest, not for many years. So in the interests of science and to be open-minded I decided to try moving a psi wheel. I took a sewing needle about 1.5 inches long (4 cm) and pushed the blunt end into an eraser which gave it a nice steady base. I cut a 2 inch square of paper (standard A4 white for my computer printer) and folded it up into triangles, reversed every alternate crease and there you have it a kind of four pointed star. TEST 1 I placed the uncovered psi wheel on the desk and left it to settle. After a few moments it stopped moving. I left it for a few minutes longer while I read my emails. It didnt move, not at all. I then placed my hands around it in an open semi-circle about an inch away from it. The air currents disturbed it of course but it soon settled down after a few seconds. I settled down to watch it knowing that nothing would happen of course. Then the most amazing thing happened. IT JUST STARTED SPINNING AROUND IN A PERMANENT CLOCKWISE DIRECTION AT A GOOD SPEED!!!!! I couldnt believe it. I was absolutely amazed. I wasnt trying to do anything, and was expecting the opposite, but it just kept on spinning away, just like I have seen in one of the vids on ppsociety. After about 30 seconds of watching it spin around at a steady speed, about I rev every 3 seconds by my count, I took my hands away. It stopped spinning immediately. I put my hands back and it started up again, still clockwise. It took a little longer to get going this time, after a few twitches, maybe 20 seconds before it really got going. Took my hands away and again it stopped. I repeated this a third time. Again, it sort of twitched about for a few seconds before going into its now usual clockwise spin. It was just so unreal!!! Had I been a young kid that would have been enough to convince me that I had TK! It is no wonder that so many of them are convinced that it is their TK moving the psi wheel, I totally understand why, it just looks so amazing!!!! BUT, I am not a young kid, I am very thorough when it comes to experiments. What else might be moving the psi wheel.? TEST 2 I wondered about air currents. Okay, when my hands are not around it it doesnt move, so it is not draughts blowing about in my study. What else could it be. I wondered if it might just be convection currents. Could the heat from my hands cause air currents. I think yes. The heat from my hands causes warm air to rise upwards, as can be seen in any infrared film. This column of rising air around the psi wheel would cause colder, denser air to be drawn in from ground level and rise up from under the psi wheel and join the column. It would create a miniature thermal. How to test this theory? I went into the bathroom and ran the water from the cold tap over my hands until they were very cold. (The things I do in the name of science!) I then placed my cold hands around the psi wheel as before. NOTHING HAPPENED. It would only give the first twitch as my hands first went around it because of the air movement so created, then nothing. Is that proof my theory about thermals is right? No, of course not. But it does mean it MIGHT be right. TEST 3 I placed a clear plastic cover over the psi wheel. It wouldnt move at all. Hands near the bowl, hands holding the bowl, no hands at all, nothing worked. Not even a twitch. No wonder again that so many of them say they can move an uncovered psi wheel but are unable to progress to a covered one! SUMMARY When the psi wheel spins it does look most impressive. I agree that no random draught moving air about in the room could do that. However, my idea that it may be the heat from my hands moving it has just run into a problem. As I have been typing this I have been stopping every now and again to make the psi wheel spin. For some reason it takes longer each time to get going, and moves less each time. Now it doesnt move at all. Why not? If it was thermals it would still move, my hands are just as warm as when I started. The first time I tried it the wheel went wild, spinning around and around. I am confused. I will need to do a lot more trail and error tests. In the meantime I have to say this. I do not think it has anything to do with TK. If it was the psi wheel would move under cover, but it doesnt. What the force is that is moving it I do not yet know. If anyone would care to replicate my tests as above and let me have their findings I would really appreciate it. I intend to do a very thorough investigation into this. Keith |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Dec 16, 2004 Views: 3560 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Hi there Anonymous but concerned PPS Members, Your posting slipped in while I was writing up my last one and doing my psi wheel tests. I still haven't got over it yet! Please do not be concerned about some TKers calling me names, I am used to it and will not take offence or consider it to be typical of you all. I am genuinely wanting to work alongside you all and try to get to the bottom of what is going on here. As I said to PJ, I will put aside my prejudices and preconceived ideas, hell, I may even stop being sarcastic.....nahhh, that's a step too far! You could help me here. It really would be very helpful if you could replicate my tests and let me have your results, even totally negative results. I feel that with proper correlation of results, by the process of elimination and replication, something useful should come out of this. I feel that this is quite an exciting challenge and I am looking forward to it. I intend to try some more tests myself and if I can come up with anything that may be useful will ask others, such as yourself, to help me out and repeat my tests. IF I can think of anything. I need some thinking time just now. Meanwhile, if any of you have any idea yourself regarding sensible group tests we could do in attempting to get some scientific results, please let me know! Thanks. Keith |
| Posted By: Bluetears Posted On: Dec 16, 2004 Views: 3555 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Well Mayes, I think it is great that you and PJ are working together to try to solve some TK issues and get scientific proof of its existance or non existance. I was just wondering if you have ever explored any other sopposed psionic abilities or just mental abilities. There is alot out there to explore you know. For example. While I still practice TK I am mostly interested in Telepathy and Empathy. So I was just wondering what some of your veiws on these other topics are. |
| Posted By: alegiojon Posted On: Dec 16, 2004 Views: 3545 | RE: Theory for TK proven! hello guys, interesting stuff this thread, well since i saw this thread way interesting and also noticed that keith and PJ are trying to find out a way to prove TK i decided to post here, well, first of all, excuse my english typos, this is not my first language, keith, i'v been reading your posts on this thread and you said that a good way to at least remove the possibilities of air currents being involved, would be placing a glass/plastic bowl over the psiwheel, well i have done it, i am here to help both of you because i also want people to believe that TK is possible, sorry if this sounds a bit egocentric, but that's not the way i mean it, the thing is that i have done things that i can't explain, as for example spinning the psiwheel under a glass container at distance, so no hands around it, i am up for you guys, i can show you both TK through webcam in live, maybe using yahoo chat or something like that, once PJ saw me doing it in live so well i think it would be a good idea, i know how you feel by a part keith, lot of people that claims to do it but doesn't show it right?, well i don't want to be one of them, i'm up to demostrate the TK i can do and that's why i came here, so well you guys tell me what to do and i'll try it out, maybe another thing i can try is spinning a straw under a big container, at distance too of course, i'll be trying it out and see if i can do it, well that's all i wanted to say by now. greets |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Dec 16, 2004 Views: 3540 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Hi Bluetears, I wish you would all call me Keith instead of Mayes. I am restricting my research into just TK. The reason being is that it is easy to set up tests, can be done alone or in groups, and it has a demonstrable physical effect. Having a physical effect means it can be measured, given a value and recorded. Spinning a psi wheel is simple. It either spins or it doesn't. No statistics required or complicated procedures or special equipment. Just precise information on the conditions of the test and on the results or lack of results. My gut feeling at the moment is that I will not be able to come up with an explanation of what causes my psi wheel to move, not one that would satisfy me anyway. I can only try. Keith |
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