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| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Dec 16, 2004 Views: 1085 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Hi there alegiojon, Thanks for your input. I will need to get back to you when I have had time to sort things out properly. It is only a couple of hours back since I first tried the psi wheel and had it rotating, so haven't had any time to think through how I am going to tackle this in a proper organised scientific way. This is the key to finding an explanation, if one can be found - proper records, proper tests, full details, etc etc. I am so fastidious about procedures and methodology that I am going to find it hard to meet my own requirements and standards! I will though :-) At the moment I am about to start a log. I want to try and discover why it works sometimes and not others. I have just had a spell of nothing happening, but halfway through this posting tried again and it spun round nicely, although only for 10 seconds or so. I need to discover what the variables are. I can't think of any off hand, but there are some, otherwise the results would always be the same. I am just going to have to be extremely thorough and rigourous on this one, At the moment I am simply puzzled, but so intrigued! Something is at work here. Cheers, Keith |
| Posted By: Greg / Placebo Posted On: Dec 16, 2004 Views: 1085 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Hi Mayes (*cough* I mean Keith :D) I'd first like to state that it's big of all parties involved here to try get along, for the sake of obtaining answers Now onto my point - The biggest difficulty I see at this point is a matter of trust. As we all know - videos are far from 'proof'. Video's can be faked. And some people do - for whatever unusual reason. It seems to me that you have some trust in Jester as an honest person, but that doesn't imply the same for the entire site. For good reason too. I'd really like to help, but how can our results help you, if there is no way of confirming that they are legitimate, scientific and honest? I'm interested in helping to research/investigate the phenomenon, assuming we can find an answer to the above And will give you some preliminary information of my own, if you would find it of use at this stage Greg (aka Placebo on PPS) PS: You can find my few downloads at http://www.dreamviews.com/mods/Placebo/PlaceboTKMedia.htm No obligation to look at them of course, but you might find the toothpick one interesting Re:thermals. The straw too. |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Dec 16, 2004 Views: 1071 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Hi there Greg (AKA Placebo) Yes, its good that we all trying to get together to sort this thing out. Okay, you all know I think TK is rubbish, but thats not the point here. We are all looking for the same answers. In this case the question is, at least for me the question is....What is going on? What forces are at work here? What can explain it? So I am trying to find a logical answer, and the way I do that is to try and not assume anything. I am not assuming it is TK at work, and not ruling it out either. SOMETHING is at work! What it is remains to be discovered, if that is possible. Yes, videos are a problem when it comes to proof. As it happens I am deeply suspicious of the few I have seen on ppsociety. I have not seen them all, the reason being I have a Mac and Macs cant read those vids, apart from a couple of early ones in the old format. I have had to go to a friends house and view them using her PC. I am afraid that goes for your vids as well. I went to your site but all I get when I try to open a vid is pages of weird text characters. Thanks anyway. I will have a look next time I get to use her PC. As far as honesty and trust go, that is a major problem. People like to exaggerate their claims, or even totally make up claims, which makes it very hard for people like me to be able to sort out the fact from the fiction. You must have seen and read claims on ppsociety yourself that make you wonder. Yes, I do trust PJ. I dont know why. He just sounds a sensible sort of guy who is looking for facts. He even said he is unsure if TK is real. So I do feel that he is on pretty much the same wavelength as me. I believe him when he said he moved a covered foil psi wheel. I intend to ask him to furnish me with the exact details of what he did so I can try to reproduce the effect. I am sure you will be of great help to the project once I find time to organise it. I have already decided to set up a separate page on a joint research project where I will post the results of our tests and ideas. I have decided to call it TK Group Research Project (Im just so creative and imaginative with titles) and will put a link into it from the main page. By doing it this way, removing the results and ideas away from the message board, which will still be just as active, it allows for photos, diagrams, essays etc. It also means it will not be clogged up with daft comments. Thanks for your help Keith |
| Posted By: Placebo Posted On: Dec 16, 2004 Views: 1030 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Hi Keith, Well done on starting the experiments so soon. As you mentioned, you certainly aren't the first to investigate it. Although we still have the issue of trust, I feel its necessary to comment on your findings. When I started to do experiment, it took me 2 weeks to see any results. And even then, it was a floating toothpick or needle on the surface of water. At that stage, I was unable to move a pinwheel at all. Over the next 3 months, it improved - which makes no sense to me in terms of thermals. Thus I find it quite unusual/lucky that you have success so soon. When you look at my pinwheel video, you'll notice my pinwheel doesn't perform to the degree that yours does. Regardless of the heat of my hands (although I'll have a go at experimenting with that properly) I'll probably get a change to do some careful, controlled results this evening (its morning for me now) When starting with the toothpick, I took the next few weeks examining any 'normal' forces I could imagine. Note that the toothpick didn't drift around, it rotated in a neat circle. That ruled out water currents IMO (correct me if I'm wrong) I started investigating static - and regularly decharged myself on bathroom taps. But as you've seen, it cannot be static, as your hands do not need movement, or attraction. Although it seems to help sometimes (once again - correct me if I'm wrong) There are videos of TKers who seem to have the object behave as an attractive/repulsive effect. And others who do it without any hand movement whatsoever. In fact some TKers claim that they no longer need to have their hands near the object. Of course, the issue of trust in these people pops up again. As to heat and thermals - thermals cannot directly affect a toothpick in water. However heat could conceivably cause a change in the surface tension of the water. I attempted to test this by running ice water over my hands, and found that I could still move the toothpick. Also, please note that I consciously move the object in the direction of my choice. Not with perfect success at this stage, but I believe it better than begin statistically random (have not explicitly tested this however) You will notice in my straw video (when you can watch it), that my hands are about 25 cm from the pinwheel most of the time. I have moved it without my hands on one occasion. I'd also like to point out that there have been a few TKers that can move pinwheels under glass, and without moving their hands. Obviously we end up with the difficulty of trust in these videos - as I'm sure you have with mine at this stage. I hope I'm not annoying anyone with my preliminary comments and results - but I find exciting the possibility of testing it in a way that has comments from people like Keith and Jester Greg |
| Posted By: Storm-wolf Posted On: Dec 17, 2004 Views: 995 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Hi, It is wonderfull to see that people from each side are starting discutions in order to find the truth about tk. What i can say, is that there is definetly something, however you call that. I also think that it can not be explained scientificaly with what science knows so far. Never forget that each year, scientist discover a lot a new thing. Sometimes they even didn't believe it could exist. I think that tk may be explained scientificaly (i don't know if that word exist), but with things that have not been discovered yet. I made experiments a while ago to check if the heat of my hand could possibly make the wheel spin. Nothing moved, or it moved barely. I put my hand very close to the wheel, and even below the wheel, and the wheel didn't move. I am also able to make my wheel spin being 3 or 4 m away from it. One day, i was a few meters away from my wheel, and was facing it with my back, i told my mum "is the wheel moving?", she said no. Then i turned back, watched the wheel, and it started spinning. You may say it is not tk, but what is is then? Actually i can do things that i cannot explain at all. I just don't know how it works, but it works. Sorry for my bad english, but that is not my first language. And that's good seeing people from opposite sides working together. |
| Posted By: alegiojon Posted On: Dec 17, 2004 Views: 982 | RE: Theory for TK proven! hello keith, interesting experiment you developed, i read it all and saw it's pictures, well i find it has sense, since i must admit that my hands gets automatically heat when i start practising TK, very strange, but it can be thermal in that point as you said, but well, i'v managed to feel different sensations, as tingling, and some kind of pressure in my hands, like if i'm holding a ball, very strange. maybe you'll get these feelings in time or maybe not, i can't know it for sure. i noticed that you couldn't spin at all the psiwheel while it was covered with something, well i have to tell you that i couldn't do that at first either, i have one year and one month practising this stuffs, and the first week i couldn't spin it at all while it was covered with something, but suddently on the second week of practise i managed to do it, i was so amazed and it convinced me more that there was something else moving it besides of the normal factors, as wind currents etc.., but that isn't all, after some months of constant practise i noticed i could spin the psiwheel without placing my hands near of it, being uncovered, and that was surprising because now it wasn't thermal, not that i know of, well after some more practise i discovered i could create this same effect on other objects, mostly balanced and light in weight, as balanced straws for example, i can spin them at distance, seriously, and nowday i can spin the psiwheel covered at distance too, as i mentioned in my last post, i really would like to show you all this, because i want to colaborate in your research, and i'm an honest and humble person that just wants to help out, i'm 19 years old and i'm from venezuela :), just wanted to let you know that, well keep it up, and i hope you start discovering and noticing things besides the thermal factors, as i did a time ago, good luck! greets |
| Posted By: White Shadow Posted On: Dec 17, 2004 Views: 961 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Keith, ...what can I say - I am baffled! My interest in this subject has been present for many years (probably as an avid fan of Starwars as a child!) But I never thought about trying it myself, until Placebo, and others at DreamViews, started proclaiming their 'powers' to me. I saw the footage and was truly amazed (more at how they managed to create such convincing fakes than their skill), but being open-minded and trusting Placebo (god know's why!) I decided to make a psi-wheel for myself and try. I thought I had a cunning plan by using a paper-clip and unfolding it in such a way that it provided a base as well as a thin point to hold the paper. I have been trying (actually concentrating) for a while now, to no avail. ...then came your experiment. Just now I decided to have a go - with my hands in an open cup around it and ... nothing happpened. I noticed that it didn't have the problem of 'settling down' that you mentioned, so I've just replaced the paper-clip (with a flat end) with a pin in a rubber (sharp end up). I made sure it stopped (then it started moving again, but only for a second). I placed my hands around it again and ... IT WORKED!!! Just like you said, it rotated (anti-clockwise) at quite a pace. I moved my hands away and it stopped! Now as I wasnt concentrating this time why would it work? And if TK is all about moving things with the mind why would I need my hands near it? I kinda believe Placebo (think I know him a little now), but I do think this is possibly un-related and a separate phenomenon. If Placebo and the others can move things in any direction without their hands near it and under cover, then that could well be TK, but Im 90% sure that this is not! Why would it matter whether the pinhead is blunt or pointed?? If you say its because the mind was blocked by the bluntness issue, then how do you explain the fact that I only realised this just now, so if my mind did not know, why would it be a problem? Ill be interested if there is anyone else who doesnt claim to be able to perform TK (and is especially a sceptic) but is able to do this. I consider myself open-minded, but I think my subconscious is VERY sceptical and pessimistic. If that makes sense to anyone?? WS |
| Posted By: Placebo Posted On: Dec 17, 2004 Views: 955 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Hi Keith. As promised, I set about doing some experiments, similar to yours. TEST 1 - Unintentional 'just put hands there' 21:42 - Set up pinwheel, closed windows and doors, washed hands, and touched bathroom piping. Covered mouth with pillow case, folded diagonally, tied behind head Wait for pinwheel to calm down (I have a video from yesterday showing that there are no draughts) 21:44 - Rub hands vigorously, to get them warm 21:46 - Initial air movement, from moving hands (I will not mention these again - I simply ignore them) Cupping hands close around the pinwheel (not what I usually do - I give it more distance) 21:49 - No movement. Rub hands some more, put wrists together...No movement Finally have movement of approx. 7 degrees clockwise and anticlockwise slowly, alternating. for 20 seconds or so This only seems to happen if I keep my hands cupped close together around the wheel 21:55 - Rub hands again, try again... Cupping hands in the same identical way. hands are very warm. No movement whatsoever 22:03 - Stop TEST 2 - Intentional Test 22:12 - Now going to do TK the way I usually do - with approx 10 cm distance from the wheel, hands not cupped as before, but spread a bit, and with distance. There is also intent to the direction I choose. A bit later, I will use ice water on my hands Sweating under the pillowcase.... 22:14 - After 1 minutes of nothing, switch hands to have them 'pointing' left, at bottom, right at top. approx 7 cm distance Another minute of nothing. Then it suddenly it moves 180 degrees clockwise, 90 a-c, 270 clockwise, 270 clockwise again Took a small breather (this pillowcase is hot :/) 22:19 - Started again this time with the intention to alternating direction when the movement stops. Approx 12 cm from wheel this time It soon moves 180 degrees a-c. and then 90 c. It continues like this, alternating with movement of about 90 to 180 each time, for the next 2 minutes or so It must have moved a total of at least 15 times, with a mistake in direction only once. Perhaps twice. 22:24 - Stopped for a breather 22:28 - Went to get iceblocks and water from cooler. And a towel Lay my hands in it for 30 secs. Damn that can be painful! Relief for 10 secs, More for 30 sec, and again. Very painful 22:34 - Soon moves 90 degrees a/c, and 45 c. Felt hands thawing out, so put them back at 22:36. Very difficult to concentrate with my bones aching. 22:37 - Wobbled a measly 10 degrees back and forth a bit. sluggishly. Not very convincing.. 22:39 - Hands in ice again 22:40 - After a minute or so, it moves 180 c, 90 a-c, 45 c. Stopped. Jiggled a bit. Distance was about 10 cm 22:43 - Stop Greg |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Dec 17, 2004 Views: 926 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Hi guys, all of you. I have just updated "our" page re latest tests. It is now almost 2.30 am and I am exhausted and have a stinking head cold and need to crawl into bed. I am too tired to resspond to all your emails right now, but will get back to you. Thanks again, specially with feed back and own test results. great stuff! Thanks Keith |
| Posted By: White Shadow Posted On: Dec 18, 2004 Views: 914 | RE: Theory for TK proven! okay, Placebo, that proves it's not the heat of the air rising (possibly). I think it's possibly something to do with magnetism anyway. This sounds logical and might even create some middle ground between the TKers and the sceptics. Perhaps TK is just control of our 'magnetic fields'? I don't know yet how the paper becomes magnetised, but then how much do we really know about magnetism anyway? My other point is this: last night my friend came back to mine after a night out (where I mentioned this test to him), I showed him on my psi-wheel (by the way, he is VERY sceptical - as in he thinks it's bollocks! ;) ) and a thousand and one explanations started to ooze from his mouth - draughts from my gf walking past, me breathing etc. He then had a go and, not surprisingly, it worked first time! Interestingly though, when he moved his right hand slightly away and his left slightly towards him the wheel rotated in a clockwise motion. He reversed it and it changed direction. I don't know why he decided to do this, but I was quite surprised at how he managed to change the direction simply by moving his hands! Now I had a point somewhere I think... oh yes! Why are we practicing moving what is best described as a 'Super-Sensitive Sail'? If not wind-related, could it be classed as a 'magnetic sail'? ...and I think I should stop mentioning the 'magnetic' bit in case some boffin comes on and tells me I'm talking crap! ;) But then hell: we're discussing TK here! :D WS |
| Posted By: Placebo Posted On: Dec 18, 2004 Views: 886 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Hi Keith I just created my second spinning straw video, and you'll notice it has over a ruler's length of distance between my hands and the straw. If my videos have any element of trust, I urge you to have a look at them. Alegiojon's doubly so - as he is more experienced than me. My page, as before, is http://placebotk.blogspot.com Let us know if you come up with more ideas on what it could be :) Greg |
| Posted By: The Last Random Hero Posted On: Dec 18, 2004 Views: 872 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Keith I'd like you to try something in your experiment, you guys might want to try this too. Do the uncovered psi wheels tests as before but instead of focusing on moving the wheel, focus on your hands. You can look at the wheel, but focus your energy into your hands instead of trying to project it into the wheel. Breath energy in, feel it gather in your chest, and when you breath out push it into your hands (but don't breath on the wheel!). I know why people feel heat when they practice TK, it's related to this experiment but I'll explain it all with all the proper info when I have time (hopefully tomorrow). |
| Posted By: Keith Mayes Posted On: Dec 18, 2004 Views: 863 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Hi Guys, Thanks for all your messages and info. I have been very busy again today doing a lot of thinking and running more tests and I think I have come up with the answer, its 20! Click here. TK Group Research Project I know its not the answer you would have hoped for, but it is an answer, albeit in a very limited way. Whats more it makes me look stupid (which probably doesnt surprise any of you in the slightest) because I have had to confess to having made a previous error of logic. Please read through my findings and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do the test and let me have your result. The 20 bit is absolutely crucial, please bear that in mind! Its almost 3.00am again, this is just eating up my time, so I am really sorry that I havent replied to you all individually yet. I am also worried that I may have screwed up again. I am not sure if I am being truly logical and unbiased here or if I am allowing years of belief to cloud my judgement and thinking processes. No doubt you will let me know what you think on that score! Thanks again, Keith |
| Posted By: Paranoid Jester Posted On: Dec 18, 2004 Views: 856 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Hi Guys... Sorry I'm getting back to you now... we've been awfully backloaded at the office. Hello Keith, I looked at your 5 step process and decided to have a go. What I did was take a paper wheel on a screw and put it in my refrigerator. While I waited for it to cool down with the door closed, I turned on the stove and heated my hands up rather hotly. I gave this 5 trials and low and behold the paper wheel did turn on the 5 counts. However, once it got to about 720 degrees, it would stop and not move any further. Sometimes, it would only go to about 90 degrees and all 5 times, the rotation was clockwise. Nothing different. Now perhaps this may explain logically the idea of energy being built being a hot and cold front like in a thunderstorm... I mean, perhaps? What I'm concerned about, however, is this particular situation (not including the ones you already mentioned)... Some of these kids are able to make the wheel turn in the direction they want it to go in. Like I said, it was only clockwise each time when I was doing this, and every time I would do an uncovered psiwheel in the past, both hands nor my left hand would ever do anything. Only my right hand alone would make it move. I don't know why. To be honest, I never was satisfied with an uncovered wheel as being evidence of anything anyway as I stated earlier. But nonetheless, what you have suggested does seem reasonable in many cases ! Regards PJ |
| Posted By: Placebo Posted On: Dec 19, 2004 Views: 984 | RE: Theory for TK proven! Hi Keith You're idea sounds quite plausible for a lot of TKers who get 'stuck' on a pinwheel. It may explain a lot - probably to the horror and defensiveness of those TKers :) I tried your steps, but unfortunately was unable to reproduce the effect in a satisfactory way. I'm willing to accept that perhaps I did something wrong, or misunderstood something. At least now we have something more we can look to, when looking at pinwheel situations. Thanks for that. We obviously wouldn't want people to go on a wild goose chase with thermals :/ However if you look at alegiojon and my videos, you'll notice that we don't need that kind of proximity and arrangement to the pinwheel or straw, in order to move it. At times I move objects from over 30 cm of distance. Alegiojon handles far greater distances. Distance from a pinwheel in the current experiment, still seems to be a flaw IMO. As is the ability for me to choose a direction, with relatively good success. As you mentioned, there are other situations that require their own investigation. One of these is Alegiojon's more recent videos, where he moves a pinwheel underneath a big glass jar. Since there are no gaps for horizontal air movement, that example seems a little unexplainable in terms of your findings. I accept that different arrangements (covered pinwheel, straws, rolling) will need their own investigation, separately :) Greg |
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