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| Posted By: Kevin Posted On: Feb 5, 2009 Views: 694 | RE: RE: Well... Does it only seem like it's destiny though? I mean as we continue to age and grow I understand what you mean how we are continually collapsing the "probablity waves" of what we will become into smaller and smaller strands until we ultimaly reach the last strand where we die. It makes sense and kind of sounds like quantam mechanics somewhat I think. I don't think that any of it is pretermined at all though, meaning that it only seems like destiny because it is hard to imagine your life if you were on one of those "different strands" and had a completely different life. It seems like we could never live a different way than we do now, or that we at least wouldn't be happy that way. So I don't really know, it seems to me that "destiny" or "fate" are just illusions and that it only seems that your life was planned this way because this is the only real life you have ever experienced. I don't know if that makes too much sense, it might be confusing to grasp lol. But that is just my opinion, who really knows? |
| Posted By: Marc Colon Alsup Posted On: Feb 6, 2009 Views: 689 | RE: Well... You're right, no one ever really knows. Like you said, it could very well just be an illusion to give hope. But then one has to wonder if cause and effect really is a proven law? though it may not seem like it, just small and what appears to be insignificant things we say to a person could change how they think about something, and ultimately change a decision they had previously made and affect there "strand" and alter it/morph it, or completely change it all together. Like if, "Timmy" really wants to take a cooking class because he loves to do it, and also lets say if he takes this class, he'll eventually become a world famous chef. However "Timmy" crossed paths with "Tommy" and Tommy says cooking is for girls and only gay people do it. well then Timmy no longer wants to take a cooking class, and his "strand" has become totally altered because he will no longer be that famous chef. But lets say my theory of destiny is partially true. All of those strands we have are interconnected with everyone else's. Lets say that before Tommy could cross paths with Timmy, Teddy was in the bathroom with Tommy, and called him a jerk because Tommy splashed water on his shoes. So now Tommy is ****ed at Teddy and Hits Teddy. And a teacher Mrs. Veronica hears the fight, and takes both boys up to the principles. Now Tommy can't cross paths with Timmy, and Timmy will take that class and be a famous chef. One more (last one I promise!) Lets say Mrs. Veronica got into a fight with her husband that morning, and was late to school. Because she was late, she wasn't walking down the hall at the point where Tommy and Teddy were fighting so Teddy kicked Tommy's ass, and ran down the hall, and crossed paths with Timmy and Kicks his ass for running into him! Now Timmy is late for class and walks in a bloody mess, but the teacher doesn't care. So Vanessa, a girl Timmy has liked forever, asks Timmy if he is okay. Long story short, they get hitched, have kids, and both are amazing cooks and own a string of restraunts. There is, as I stated, an infinite amount of possibilities one could end up with, and because are strands are all intertwined, they are constantly changing. If I had continued down the path I was in two months ago, I would be in Jail now. But because my long lost sibling found me, I have a life goal now and I'm working hard to accomplish it, and I feel it will change the lives of thousands for the better. If I had not snuck out of the house (I'm only 16 :D) about a month ago, I never would have stumbled upon this blog, and I wouldn't be typing this, and I wouldn't have told anyone about my theories. Fate is ever changing, infinite, and never satisfied and settled. wOw that was convoluted O_O |
| Posted By: Stethoscope Boy Posted On: Feb 6, 2009 Views: 687 | RE: Well... Nicely put Marc. You just demonstrated that humans are shaped by our environment and our experieneces. It was once believed by scientists that all personality is, was how that person was shaped by their evironment and life experiences. It was soon discovered by some research that humans genes passed on from our ancestors have more affect on our lives than anyone originally thought. Though no one knows for sure how much genes affect us, its pretty much been determined that more than just our environement affect how we live our lives. I always thought of an interesting experiment that could proove the importance of genes and personality. Lets take five newborn babies and place them in five identical rooms. In these rooms we will have machines, or robots, take care of and raise these children in EXACTLY the same way. (Thats why machines would have to be used to reduce the chance of anything being different in each room). If the theory of the only thing that affects personality is environment and experience than all the children should act and do things the same way and at the same time. This does seem hard to believe, and it could be argued if these rooms could even be possible to build. Not to mention the cruelity of the experiment in the first place. But if genes do affect us, than each child should act in very different ways even though they are experiencing the exact same things. Just thought this was interesting to think about lol. |
| Posted By: Kevin Posted On: Feb 6, 2009 Views: 684 | RE: RE: RE: Well... I have always found the nature vs. nuture debate interesting as well. We can never really test to see if it is our inherit traits that make us the way we are or the environment we are surrounded by. In my own opinion, I still believe that one's environment plays a crucial role in how that person will grow and develop. But still, I think our genetic traits from inheritance also are important becuase they seem to determine how we will respond to which environment we are in. For example, in your experiment Stethoscope I think the results would indicate that the five different children would grow up similarly but ultimaly there will be differences between them based on how "fit" their genetic traits made them. There really is no way though to test how much of a factor the enviroment is compared to that of genetic inheritance; one becuase it would be cruel testing humans in this way becuase they would have to be isolated from the rest of humanity and two I just don't see a clear way to determine the results in a scientific way. And again in response to Marc, I agree with your story and logic once again but it actually seemed like you were supporting my opinion that there is no real destiny. I mean, you described several stories all differing by a certain variable that leads to drastically different results. But none of these variables seem to be pre-determined but again based solely on chance and randomness. I think it would be completely random if Ms. Veronica had happened to got in a fight with her husband that day or if Tommy ran into Timmy and changed his life etc. Again I think it only seems like destiny because we are all here right now doing the exact things we are right now becuase of a whole lifes worth of choice making and that this life is just the combination of all those infinite probabilities collapsing into the one that actually exists. That may not sound right becuase this type of subject is very hard to express properly in words lol. But we each hold our own opinion and if yours helps you live your life more happily and completely then all power to you! |
| Posted By: Marc Colon Alsup Posted On: Feb 6, 2009 Views: 684 | RE: Well... That would definitly raise quite a few eye brows among the science communities, that's for sure. Instead of the actual five newborns, though, what about clones of five different new borns. Though it would be less cruel for the babies themselves, it would be inhumane to clones. I would love to see the results of this test, but I don't think I could ever be apart of it. Depriving children life is like murder in my eyes. But on the other hand, .. you've really put me on the fence about this one! haha. It would be almost revolutionary, if you think about it, if someone did indeed get conclusive results. But the scientist who conducts the experiment would be veiwed forever as heartless. Wow, now that was a good one S.Boy. I can't decide which side I'd be on! |
| Posted By: Marc Colon Alsup Posted On: Feb 6, 2009 Views: 683 | RE: Well... You know Kevin, I like the way you think. haha. My thoery of detiny is set on the fact that it does have infinite amount of possibilties so in that, it is not predetermined. It is random, but each random cause is the product of effect. SO! I guess what my theory is stating in simpiler terms is, for every effect, it is predetermined to have an effect. though that doesn't seem to cover it either. hahaha my mind always takes its ideas on a roller coaster ride. |
| Posted By: Marc Colon Alsup Posted On: Feb 6, 2009 Views: 682 | RE: Well... woops, I meant for every cause, it is predetermined to have an effect. |
| Posted By: Kevin Posted On: Feb 6, 2009 Views: 678 | RE: Well... Let me try to get it straight on what your saying becuase this stuff is hard to make sense of lol. Are you saying that each of the infinitely many causes there is one "pre-determined" effect that will result? Meaning that, every instant we exist we are experiencing the pre-determined effects of one moment's infinintely many and random causes? I think that is what you are trying to say and I think I agree with this. But this process would have to happen continually throughout our lives at a continuous rate. Similarly to how the exponential function "e" compounds continuously, if that makes it easier to understand lol. |
| Posted By: Marc Colon Alsup Posted On: Feb 6, 2009 Views: 674 | RE: Well... Yes! that's exactly what I'm saying! For every infinite cause possability, there is a direct, pre-determined action that will result. Ha, you do a better job at making sense of my insanity then I do. But that is what I believe. :) |
| Posted By: Marc Colon Alsup Posted On: Feb 6, 2009 Views: 673 | RE: Well... Except about the exponetial part. it's more like it's decreasing exponetially because as time goes by, we have more limited moves we can make. It's sort of like a tree really. each strand branching off of the next one, always causing other strands around it to stimulate. As I said in the beggining, cause and effect, the ripple effect, and all those other terms. It is all cause and effect, but with variables. Every new strand we create/follow, we affect other people strands as well. That is, thinking that a person has human contact. If a person was in prison for life by the time they were a baby, their is strands are obviously pretty limited haha I should give a name to this theory... |
| Posted By: Kevin Posted On: Feb 6, 2009 Views: 597 | RE: Well... The "e" thing was not a good example. I was not trying to say that anything increases exponentially I was trying to point out the continuous part. I mean that a random cause produces a pre-determined effect at a continuous rate. Like there is no moment in your life when a cause is not producing an effect it happens second to second, millisecond to millisecond. That is what I meant when I was referring to "e". And another thing this sounds more like how physical laws work. Any random cause always produces a pre-determined effect because these effects are bounded by the laws of physics and must abide by them. For example, throwing a rock is a random cause but its pre-determined effect is "pre-determined" becuase it must follow the laws of physics. It seems that at the most simple level every effect is based on laws that govern the way in which the universe works. I find it interesting though how many of humanities laws are broken on a daily basis, but not one time in the history of the universe has a particle disobeyed the laws of physics. Well......I guess what goes on in quantam physics is the exception to that rule but no one can truly understand what the hell is going on at the quantam level yet lol. |
| Posted By: Stethoscope Boy Posted On: Feb 7, 2009 Views: 592 | RE: Well... haha intereseting stuff. I've always enjoyed making up human experiments in my head, and I actuelly have tons of them, however I would never carry any out because like I said they aren't fair for the humans. However, when you think about it, alot of mysteries about humans, like emotions, mind, physical abilities, etc, could be tested and we could find some interesting things out. But I hope these experiements aren't carried out, however I wouldn't be surprised if they were in the future. I was thinking about that strand thing with timmy and tommy. I've always known that I could be good at art. In elementary school I enjoyed doing it and was actuelly pretty good at it. Even though I was good at it and enjoyed it I wasn't interested in it enough to take it in hoghschool or pursue it in any other way. But now that I think of it, if one of my friends or a teacher were to be into art and encouraged me to take a class, I probably would have become a pretty good artist. But no one ever did, so I never got into art and probably never will. When you really think about it the people around you affect you in more ways than you think. But as kevin said, I also believe genes play a vital role as well. |
| Posted By: marc colon Alsup Posted On: Feb 7, 2009 Views: 584 | RE: Well... when I was born, my father denied me as his son. Long story short, I moved with my mom and two sisters and never met him. Until recently, I knew very very little about my fathers side. Then I got into contact with my sister Faith and found out that a lot if my actions and how I grew up and how I think were extrodinarily similar to my other siblings whom I've never met! Genes are way stronger than anyone could ever realize.. I was in shock when I found this out, it's amazing! It means we could very well be thinking exactly like how are great ancestors did.. |
| Posted By: Stethoscope Boy Posted On: Feb 8, 2009 Views: 579 | RE: RE: RE: Well... lol I wish I could say the same about my siblings. I have two sisters, my oldest sister is highly religious and attends church every sunday, I on the other hand questioned the church and religion at a very young age. (I never actuelly told anyone in my family about my views though lol). She's incredibly good at mathematics and I'm pretty good too, so I guess thats what we have in common. However I highly doubt her mind is as philosophical as mine. My younger sister on the other hand is very different than me. She may be one of the most close minded, and "blind" people I've ever known. I have no doubt in my mind that she has never questioned anything in front of her. But I guess thats just because we all recieved are genes from different parts of the family. I honestly can't say I know anyone I'm related to that seems to be very similar to me. Guess I just got lucky with the right combination of genes to make me. |
| Posted By: Kevin Posted On: Feb 9, 2009 Views: 568 | RE: Well... You have to take in the environment as well too. I mean just becuase you are all living in the same general area as your brothers and sisters doesnt mean you have the same environment. For one, you were born at a different time and had a different role in the family so this could have influenced the way you have developed into the person you are today. I mean I'm sure genes play a major part in one's development but I think people tend to over-generalize what an environment really is. There really are no two exact environments becuase the world is viewed from all different perspectives, so that even living in the same house is not really the same environment for two people becuase you connect to different parts of the house or have a different role in the family or simply got hooked on watching science shows when you were a kid (this happened to me lol). But then again you can say genes are what determine how you respond to these specific differences so I mean really we have no clear idea how big of a role each plays in shaping us. I mean how can anyone really tell if one's mind develops a certain way because of it's genetic make-up or becuase of the environment that mind was placed in? I'm sure it is some sort of combination of the two, but honestly it would be very difficult for me to believe anyone who claims they know certain percentages of how these two factors influence us simply becuase there is no real way to test any hypothesis without further technological advnaces or unless we started isolating humans and testing them in a lab for years at a time, which I hope we never do. |
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